- cross-posted to:
- unions@sh.itjust.works
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Why do rich people get to replace human workers with robots and then tell humans they should get a job if they want to live
“Get a job”
“I would, but you’re the one who provides jobs and you won’t provide them”
The rise of steam power during the industrial revolution didn’t just result in people working fewer hours. Workers were much more productive than before, but they didn’t automatically get shorter work weeks.
Getting an 8-hour work day required the workers to form powerful unions and go on strike. Those strikes were broken up by private security and cops. People were killed. But, eventually, decades later, the rich people with power were forced to negotiate and 8 hour days were the norm.
I have known individual workers who had skills that were in high demand which gave them leverage. They negotiated deals like 4 day work weeks, or 30 hour work weeks because they could.
But, for the average worker to get a shorter work week, it’s going to take collective action. It’s probably also going to require that blood be spilled. Unless people are angry enough to getting beaten or maybe killed, nothing’s going to change. Step 1 is joining a union.
The US government crushes unions routinely.
They were at over 45% of the work force in the 1940s-50s.
Now less than 10%, and most of those are cops ironically. The union busters have a union.
I don’t think the government itself particularly hates unions. A lot of government workers are unionized. The problem is that rich people are either getting elected or are buying elections, and the rich-friendly reps are passing more and more laws that weaken unions.
I came across an article recently by some reporters who had “snuck in” to a police union meeting. It’s interesting what they saw. One quote:
“When it comes to police unions, what we run across is the left is very suspicious of us because we’re police, and the right is suspicious of us because we’re in unions. We get it from both sides.”
https://therealnews.com/beards-and-loathing-a-cop-union-convention-comes-to-las-vegas
Most governments hate unions because they stand in the way of their work: doing the oligarchs bidding.
Now tell them about the light bulb cartel and planned obsolescence.
I just bought an unbreakable Superfest glass on Etsy. When we start producing these things again we can revisit this conversation.
Capitalism
Capitalism is feudalism with more math.
Yes, because feudalism was famous for its short work weeks.
capitalism is an advanced form of feudalism
Sure, just like wood is an advanced form of metal.
The end goals and results are the same. That’s what matters.
And that will always be true by necessity for capitalism, it is the inevitable end result, it will always end the same way and it will always end the same. With implosion.
The end goals and results are the same. That’s what matters.
Ah, so an airplane is an advanced form of motorcycle, because the end goal is transportation.
Similarly, an oven is an advanced form of garden because the end goal is to provide food to eat.
Feudalism and capitalism are both forms of government, so they’re related, but one is not an “advanced form” of the other in any meaningful way.
No, that is you arbitrarily assigning random variables to the underlying proposition.
But yes, I agree that feudalism and capitalism are both forms of government, and I’d say that capitalism is the fruit of feudalism. It is feudalism in another shape. The purpose is to let the rich stay rich at the expense of everybody else. It is fundamentally incompatible with democracy, it stands in direct opposition to it.
The general societal stratification is the same, and acts similarly. It is feudalism with more math, but it’s still a form of serfdom. It’s like, capitalism says that it will solve everything, because on average everyone will have a better life.
The rich will make 1000, and you will make 1. Everybody wins, right?
The stratification, the accumulation of wealth, is the point. It is the mechanism by which the former feudal lords can whitewash their wealth- “look at us, we earned this money by smart investments. We are admirable! You could be like us! We aren’t tyrants and kings and princes, we were just smart!”
And over generations everyone is like, yeah, that makes sense!
If money is power, then capitalism is a form of government, and in direct opposition to the rule of a democratic process and law and order.
In my correct opinion.
People cut heads off nobility to get better conditions, and had to keep doing variants of it and fight for their lives for two hundred years until we finally broke free from it- only to have to slave for half the time of the day
They had more holidays and time off than we do now. Most of their work was seasonal, they were worked almost to death at harvest time for example.
Their “holidays” were “holy days” where they had to go on long pilgrimages, etc. It wasn’t the day where they sat at home and did fun things, they were the days where their religious duties trumped their farm work duties. And, when it came to their “time off” those were the times when they were mending pots and pans, sewing up holes in clothes, and other housework that they didn’t have time for when they were out in the fields.
I fail to see where the original comment highlights that feudalism is the next best option? Unless they edited their comment?
It’s nothing about “the next best option”. The problem is they seem to think that capitalism caused this issue, when really it has been a part of every form of government that has ever existed, and was significantly worse under feudalism.
K
Actually it was… Typically you only worked for your lord around 3 days a week, the rest of the time was yours to toil your own fields, and even then there was a lot of down time. The church mandated more time off than modern companies give…
A lot of that extra hours is because of planned obsolescence. If products lasted longer, if products were repairable, less would need to be manufactured. If less needed to be manufactured, the less work we need to do.
I just commented something similar. These are the fruits of capitalism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel
(or the grapes of wrath, as it were)
We really need a stakeholder centric economy and not a shareholder centered one.
The owners should be the shareholders, and the shareholders should be the workers. I think that makes sense. If everyone owns a stake in the company, it is in everyone’s interest to work well. Who gives a shit about loafing and stealing from some anonymous corporate job where your wages don’t depend on your contribution at all?
I have read that with our current productivity we should have a 4-day workweek and much higher salaries. But all the gains go straight to the top.
I believe it’s already possible with a 20 hour work week.
I know I only put in about 20 hours of work into a 40 hour work week…
It’s meant to make dollars, not sense.
In a better world, we’d be paid much more for less work. No loss of jobs to AI, company would just keep on employees to cover for others to take long vacations. CEO and executive team won’t make 300x more then their average employee
Because the American workforce in general are a bunch of morons. I remember when I was a corporate guy everyone would walk around with their heads down and when you would ask someone you were friendly with how are you their immediate response would be “so busy so so busy.” They would ask how I was and I would say “well I’m not busy like you and I’m happy I’m not busy like you.” And they would look at me like hush how dare you say that if I’m even seen next to you saying that I could be fired.
Just imagine if America decoupled healthcare from your job and people actually had the ability to choose where they really wanted to hang their hat for their daily billionaire chores. I think the workforce would dramatically change and there would be a lot of happier people. But since America was founded on Puritan values I don’t think happy is part of the lexicon when it comes to work.
Yep. I’m a communist but let’s be fair, this is not even a problem with capitalism. It’s not a win-lose situation where the oligarchs make money off of your misery. It’s a lose-lose where your misery causes lower productivity and the only thing that fuels it is a shitty, psychotic culture of dominance, obedience and puritan values.
Yes, decoupling healthcare would be a stark change, which is scary so we can’t do that. Also, it would nuke the Ritchie Riches’s hold on competitive hiring so … more propaganda.
Sixty hours a week? Tell me you’re Ametican without telling me that you are American.
And if you complain, you are not a “team player”. That’s how you end up on the next layoff list.
What?! You took a couple days off last year?! I know we have “unlimited vacation time”, but team players don’t take time off. Believe it or not, straight to the layoff list.
I’ve had three days off this past year besides weekends, only one sick day
I’m still poor
With my socialist European collective bargaining agreement I would only be working 5 months in a year if that was my usual workweek
I’ve been arguing this for years. I’m 10x minimum more efficient since I got into IT almost 2 decades ago, there is no end in site, no slowdown. Just more work work work. So much shit is instant and only takes a few moments when it’s not. No way we need to work this much.
Ok so is this story, I think it’s from the book Freakonomics, but I can’t remember. So I’m paraphrasing:
Monsanto (or similar) goes to like Vietnam or Cambodia (or whatever).
They say, use our GMO rice, it will double your yield per year.
They say, great!
A year later Monsanto comes back, and finds the Vietnamese have only planted half their fields.
“Why did you only plant half the field?”
“Because with your seeds, we can work half as much”.
I tried half assedly find the original story but the other cheek couldn’t be arsed.
And we only live once. And our lives fucking suck because of a greedy few. Our short time alive is being wasted so some piece of shit can make billions or conquer 20 countries or any other pathologically despicable goal like that. And I mean pathological. These people are not sane, and society glorifies their mental illness.
Billionaires are OCD patients with Financial Hoarding Disorder. They have no need that for that much money, and no amount will EVER satisfy their mental illness. They will literally kill millions in order to accumulate more.
They need to have their hoard confiscated, and given mental health treatment, and if they don’t respond to the treatment, then they need to be institutionalized for being a danger to society.
Why would they surrender the power to have any vacation they want at nearly anytime and buy our politicians to push whatever narrative they like? They are dragons, and they live for status and power — the rest of us be damned.
There was a lot of progress until quite recently. Current retirees saw truly mind boggling changes during their lives. My mother (born in the 1940s) grew up in a house with no electricity and no running water. Now she’s retired and she can browse facebook on her mobile phone. My “father in law” bought his first house when he was in his twenties, paying cash with money saved from his first job. Their generation was not exploited and abused the way young people are today. They got to work less and less and managed to retire comfortably. Then political class broke their contract with voters and next generations are significantly worse off than previous ones (less intelligent as well) but a lot of people are still living comfortably enough not to complain. The way people participate in politics also changed. Polarization won over organization. Young people try to fight but without proper structures and strategy it quickly turns into violent lashing out and nothing is achieved. Is it going to change? Probably not. People in charge will keep exploiting divisions among us to further dismantle the system.
The system is built on eternal growth. Slowing down is not an option.
And the “myth of rugged individualism”, which is a political science/journalism way of saying rich people sold a bullshit idea of American culture being largely reliant on people not accepting help or cooperation from other people or the govt so rich people can avoid putting in their fair share.
“myth of rugged individualism”,
A better name for that that, one which I apply to myself, is “toxic independence”. It covers more issues, I think, because it includes people who don’t see themselves as rugged individualists, but just ordinary people surviving as best they can.
They’ll kill that myth the second it’s not profitable.
Absolutely. Also, it’s built so that those at the top hoard all the wealth and resources and use that advantage… to hoard all the wealth and resources.
The 40-hour workweek was standardized by socialists in the early 1900s. 8 hours for work, 8 hours for sleep, and 8 hours for whatever else you wanted to do during the day. Obviously, that’s been exploited. I work 68 hours a week and still can’t afford health insurance, and my job doesn’t offer it.
Let’s not forget that before one wage was enough for a family of four a car and a house.
Today a single wage gets you a room in a shared apartment.
Though it’s not as idyllic as you think, people were worked to the bone still, it just wasn’t spread out, basically every man was like a Black Company Worker
That’s just stupid people electing someone who speaks good. I studied in the “best” school, was not the one with highest grades, still was smarter than 90% of those A graders to not believe in bullshit politicians or system. It is wherever you go they are everywhere and you are stuck in this broken world and broken system. Such a shame because humanity achieved many incredible things
That’s the neat part: you don’t! You need to work a lot and barely survive so rich people can get richer and have more power and status, silly.
At this point power and status bores them, they’re at the stage where they have to kill some of the poors for sport and sadistic pleasure to feel something other than disdain for their spouses and children.
there is another way
