- cross-posted to:
- europe@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- europe@lemmy.ml
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Si vis pacem, para bellum.
In Finland we have mandatory conscription. It is a very good way of getting a military, whoch is dofficult to use for expansionist adventures, but very good for defence.
It is not cheap. Putting a million people through the training represents a significant loss of GDP, but imagine trying to attack a country where half the population has even some serious military training.
Swede here, I went to muster back in the early 2000s, but my hearing was too bad, and I was failed out.
At the time I was happy, I wasn’t ready for it, but these days I think it would have been a great source of self dicipline for me.
Eh, in either case, from what I have heard/read, mandatory conscription will also boost social cohesion of a population which makes sense.
Nazi that coming from the Alps. 🙄
I think there is value in Finland’s system, when Russia clearly is a huge threat to Europe.
Maybe every part of Europe should have a system like that. Perhaps everybody, rich or poor, and perhaps even older as well as younger (not kids or pensioners though) could be trained to contribute in some way to national defence. This could include training for building weapons in factories for example. Look at how important Ukraine’s weapons companies are currently, when it comes to their national defence.
Every accusation is a confession with fascists, from Ukraine to Israel.
Historically, all conflicts with Russia came from Europe. I don’t see this as anything different.
This is all you need to know about the West’s adversarial nature toward Russia
The current regime makes politics for old people, dances around “difficult questions” and acts surprised if they are called out for it; For one, only men get draftet, but this is okay, because of reasons; In the past you could aquire stuff like drivers licences or certificates when you did your mandatory service; Now you get nothing, only wasted time;
It is a very good way of getting a military
It is a very effective way of getting a military, allright. But good? No! It’s like “slavery is a very good way to build some pyramids”.
The conscription military only works when people feel their country is worth defending. There are plenty of people who declined to serve for moral reasons. There are plenty of reasons to criticize the system (gender equality rises to mind).
I think part of the reason the Finnish political system serves the people more than some others is because it needs to. We have our problems of course, a lot of the population is old, so prioritizing young people doesn’t always happen the way it ought to. Still, most people are OK with going, very few support abolishing the system because we know we all are needed to make attacking us fucking suck.
What I never understand about this reasoning…when “most” people feel this way, why is it compulsory and needs fines? If everybody and their grandma is happy defending the country, they could go voluntarily. Who cares about the threefiddy people who don’t go? They would be shitty comrades in the trenches anyway. So, why are people forced, then?
What I never understand about this reasoning…when “most” people feel this way, why is it compulsory and needs fines?
Well, what are you doing to give back to society, apart from posting on Lemmy about every form of compulsion being slavery?
People increasingly treat society and the state as a giant free-for-all where everything has to be provided by an abstract entity rather than a community where you participate.
Well, what are you doing to give back to society
😅👍
For once, I served as conscript. Even did three months extra. Funnily enough that is not so much what I consider my most interesting contribution to society.
“Community” and “participation” are the keywords here. I feel like being bullied to do something is not very “participate in something”. It’s just being bullied.
Tragedy of the commons, no individual downside encourages freeriding.
Its not mandatory in the way slavery is, you can choose to do a civilian service instead. I do think there is some good value in having people serve their societies in less voluntary ways, I think the unifying social effects of that alone is really valuable, in this increasingly individualistic age we live in
Cool, I can “chose” to which kind of labor I am forced (but only whether the labor is done with or without a weapon in my hands).
Crazy, I know, but you can train solidarity in a society in other ways than forcing people to work (or train them to kill and be killed).
My friend who did the civil service spent a few weeks at a camp learning about first aid, fire safety among other emergency skills. Then the rest of the year they just worked at an art school (because they was allowed to choose where they work at) updating computers and hanging around with youths. Yea, the pay wasn’t amazing but it was experience none the less, and I am really glad to live in a country where regular people have at least some readiness to help and keep the society running during wartime or any other massive crisis. This system isn’t due to authoritarian governmental malevolence, its to prepare us all for a war that is unfortunately a possibility due to our neighbour.
I know a guy for whom it was A-OK, that’s why forced labor for everyone is a good thing
Ok. I was a conscript, I’d say it was Ok for me as well, doesn’t make it right.
Reminds me of the one heir of Germany’s Balsen dynasty. She made some headlines some time ago saying something like “Forced labor during WW2 in our company was not too bad. We paid the workers and, as far as I know, treated them well.”
I like your example, as the pyramids weren’t built by slaves.
JFC, it was a joke metaphor.
Replace it with Holocaust slaves. This IS GERMANY.
Good. Slavery, forced work and stripping people off bodily autonomy is not a European value, and people who are forcing authoritarianism down our throats are no different than Putin supporters. I will fight for values, not for the flag and a song, and if Europe loses its course, its no longer worth defending.
You say you are fighting for values, but if you’re not fighting for the nation or the union of nations that represent those values, it’s just empty rhetoric
It’s a conundrum, isn’t it? If one of my values is “people should not be involuntarily drafted into the army”, what to do then?
So, assume the Ukranian people had all followed that principle. What would their daily lives look like now?
Well, all the men (like half a million of them?) who were involuntarily conscripted, kidnapped from their homes, tortured to comply and killed in action would prefer to be alive.
Alright. So in principle, the whole world should bow to the one head of state that is bound to exist somewhere that does not subscribe to these high ideals. Got it.
But…not forcing men to fight, doesn’t mean that there’s no army? I’m confused.
But anyway, if your country is attacked, but nobody (or too few) wants to defend it voluntarily…maybe, that is kind of a vote with the feet, that either your odds a very bad anyways or that people rather chose to live in occupation and deem it less bad than fighting and dying ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
People who call military service “slavery” are in the same category as those who say “taxes are theft”.
I’m against military duty as well, but why do those protests always assume that conscripts will get sent into warzones? That’s definitely not the case in germany. Conscripts will never get sent into warzones unless germany gets actively attacked. Those protestors think that if military duty gets reactivated, every conscript gets instantly sent to Ukraine. Ffs, this is Germany, not Russia.
Not only that, in the past, Germany had an excellent system of substitute service for people who opted against serving in the military, with plenty of options to choose from.
Full service mentality. Love to get up in the morning, go to school for free, have all the amenities they are used to and certainly someone else really should do something so they can repeat that day tomorrow.
I served, I am on the reserve list, I am one of the ones that will go and do something if necessary. But no, you go ahead and do you, everything is taken care of, no need to take over any responsibility other than paying your club membership. I mean, taxes, sorry.
Oh wow, are we sure this is the mentality that we want to see in military personnel towards the people they’re supposed to be protecting? Yikes.
that we want to see in military personnel towards the people they’re supposed to be protecting?
I’m not sure where you’re from, but, at least in Germany it wasn’t “the military” and “the rest of the people that they work for”. Because many people had served, at least until 2005/2006-ish, the idea that we all would stand together in case of conflict and a lot of people in civil life would go back temporarily and do their service at the front was much more common.
As I said, this has been widely replaced by a service expectation. Thrown money in the magic military box, get protection, precisely as you’ve said.
Go get me a glass of water.
Let’s be honnest with ourself. We are on lemmy. We are commenting from our home confort about something we don’t have to live.
I don’t get the arguments of our youth. On one hand they say „I‘m not going to die in war for ya“ and on the other side they say „Putin will not attack us because we have way more weapons“
One has to fight for its rights, it’s not given as a present. If a neighbor country is aggressive and unpredictable, one has to serve in military service or civil service. Same as all young men in Germany did as well.
There is “no war, but the class war” because wealthy young men never see combat. Decision makers do not send their own children to die. Putin is also sending the poor.
True. It’s like this for the entire humankind.
Still, standard people nowadays have far more rights and autonomy than in any other time. This was fought by our ancestors in last two centuries. Even the pure possibility to elect a leader, who decides about war, is a pretty new phenomen. If you do not fight for those rights at all needed levels, it will taken away by the wealthy.
So look, this article is about young people fighting for their rights.
I won‘t place hedonistic motifs in the same line as a fight for rights for people.
I don’t know how staying alive and not getting killed is hedonistic.
It’s about your individual being and avoid suffering. Others don’t matter.
autonomous weapons aren’t that far away, and are almost certainly cheaper than veterans
Yes, and you will need people to operate them. Such people are called soldiers.
I said autonomous not remote controlled.
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That’s naive. Putin is building an army with 1.5 million soldiers, he’s in panic mode and highly unpredictable. The only thing that will stop Russia is strength.
Putin is barely managing against a solo Ukraine and painstakingly avoiding open conflict with NATO territory. If you think Germany will be solo against Russia and thus requires a draft, you’re the naive one
Ukraine has support, not enough, but enough to stand up to him
NATO without the US has already a higher budget, more soldiers, more vehicles and planes and more modern equipment than Russia.
You’re getting fooled by propaganda which has a habit of portraying their enemies as weaker and stronger at the same time.
Europe is starving its social security, education, infrastructure and healthcare to funnel everything into rearmament while the armaments industry has the lowest return of investment with 50 cents per euro invested.
This is not East vs West, this is class war.
If the war happens, this post would age like milk. Russia has FPVs and Shaheds, cheap recon drones like Orlan, mid range vehicle hunters Lancets. True, they are in a very bad shape and will likely lose if they face the while Europe + Ukraine at the same time in full strength, but people heavily underestimate the military tech advancements made in the war.
As it stands, the only undeniable edge EU has over them is in planes. Would it be enough?
That’s the idea of “yes we definitely need an army” but personally I’m not willing to contribute 😉
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The EU, combined with the UK and Turkey have over 2 million soldiers already, more advanced equipment and vastly more capital.
Also no, Putin isn‘t. He‘s been putting mercenaries of over 40 nations and many Russians into the meat grinder for almost 5 years. Russia has no resources to win any war right now.
@susieq0044 @schizoidman
Putin has already lost 1.5 million soldiers.
That is a lesson that German youth are taking.And the lesson is dont resist someone who has already lost 1.5 million soliders?
No I think the lesson is don’t let them force you to die for nothing (while their own children always seem to skate by and avoid the danger)
