I’ve heard so called “liberal” media discuss and condemn Hassan Piker more than I’ve seen them discuss and condemn Trump and all his lackeys combined.
They’re the definition of controlled opposition.
I’ve heard so called “liberal” media discuss and condemn Hassan Piker more than I’ve seen them discuss and condemn Trump and all his lackeys combined.
Bud, what the hell is your media diet??? That’s a fox-news level of informed take
That’s probably hyperbolic, but Piker’s a big story if you don’t stay in safety bubble lemmy land. It’s a whole new world out there.
I’d provide links and discuss further, but honestly I would rather not get my comment deleted or banned.
Am I supposed to know who he is?
Nah. Some sort of streamer
The logical conclusion to this would be the liberals admitting both sides are bad and the progressive admitting one side is worse.
But liberals don’t think both sides are bad. That’s the issue.
exactly. And that’s why they immediately go to “oh, you think both sides are equally bad?” when nobody says that.
Because either you accept the Democratic centrist position and vote for them, or to them you’ve equated the two.
The Democrats can be better than Trump, and still unacceptable to support. Not just as a moral matter, but as a tactical one as well. Because as long as Schumer and Biden style neoliberalism is a going concern and in leadership, progressives (much less socialists) are not only going to be shutted aside, but actively opposed, as we’ve seen since 2016.
Hassan piker is a nepotistic pos that cosplays as someone that fights for equality.
He’s a twitch streamer, instead of, I don’t know, the President of the United States and his appointed officials. Why should most of the media care about Hassan Piker at all?
For anyone who needs to hear it, that’s not an excuse to not criticize whatever your side is.
While that’s true, there’s a strategic time where it’s not the best idea to do so, as your criticism will get weaponized.
Around here there’s a political ad featuring someone who lost a loved one to gun violence. He thought he was going to be used in an anti-gun-violence PSA, but instead it was a campaign ad blaming ‘the other guy’ for the criminal that killed his loved one, which he very much disagreed with.
So between July and election day on election years, it’s time to rally behind the best practical option. Conversely, primary season on such years are a critical time to get engaged on the nuance of the party.
Be better than your opponent
No.
As someone else put it well, the primary is the time you push to the left.
The general is the time you punish going to the right. And that’s the only time you are given for that.
Vote Democrats if there is no progressive alternative. But always primary progressives in Democratic primaries.
Lemmy users in socialism.ml actually define Putin as progressive (I wish I was joking)
EDIT: look at them all brigading me below. PUTIN SUCKS and North Korea is an authoritarian shithole!
Can you post a screenshot of this? It sounds believable, but I’d rather have concrete evidence.
Well, to be fair, they’re a bunch of idiots. So… no need to take them any more serious than you would MAGA.
Where? I would love to see one case of this happening.
I would show you, but mods deleted all my comments! Just criticize Putin, Stalin or Kim Jogn Un in the socialism.ml or memes.ml instance and you’ll instantly have -10 downvotes and probably a ban
That doesn’t make sense. We’re not looking for your comments.
He said he would like to see one case of this happening… a comment would demonstrate that
No, he said he would like to see an example of an .ml user calling Putin progressive. Are you drunk?
Could we please not resort to ad hominem attacks and insults, “Nonconfrontational”? This isn’t Reddit.
Logically, I don’t follow where that was specifically asked, but here’s a comment calling Putin’s Russia progressive: https://lemmy.ml/comment/27815508
lmao pointing out that the US has more people imprisoned than the USSR is not a mossad psyop
I am glad that people like you get banned
Its awesome how these people can just make up bullshit and never get punished on their instance.
I suppose thats a universal issue, but its still egregious.literally every time someone is like ‘woe is me the tankies got me, all i did was speak truth to power’ i look at the modlog and it’s them insulting people or being a reactionary
The only insult is your support of Putin and Stalin.
I’ve been banned for stating North Korea is an authoritarian shithole. Is that bullshit, in your opinion?
That was not the comment I was banned for, and you know it.
80% of that figure weren’t imprisoned, they were on probation! Clearly misinformation when you look at the facts… that upsets Stalinists.
Have a sense of humor!
I love how you can just make shit up and libs eat it like slop, as long as its about someone they’re preconditioned to hate.
This is the way, at least until we get rid of First Past the Post and other Ordinal voting systems.
Score, STAR, or Approval would all make primaries unnecessary, and also reward people for honestly voting their preferences. Which is sort of why there’s so much pushback against them.
deleted by creator
Germany still uses Ordinal voting.
But yes, you also have about 20% of any given population that will openly choose the greatest evil.
But since the people benefitting from the current setup are the ones who’ll have to agree to change it and create the new system, there is absolutely no hope of ever peacefully ending the current status quo.
Except for the fact that pretty much every single progressive in Congress or on the ballot is in favor of some form of electoral reform.
But like you said, obviously nothing at all can be done, you know, besides voting for them.
And the people who actually control the party, decide what legislation gets a vote, and punish members who go against leadership will never allow it to happen, nor will they allow any of those progressive politicians to succeed them in their positions of power. Progressives are allowed on the party bcs they help keep the left flank in line, but they will never be allowed to hold any real power. That might threaten the Wall St donation gravy train, and the Third Way Foundation assholes who have a death grip on the power structures of the party will kill everyone on Earth before they give up that money.
Ah, defeatism. And basically telling other people to not even try.
I’d expect nothing less from .ml
Lol, the people insisting that continuing to do the exact thing that got is here is the only viable way to change things accusing others of defeatism will never stop being hilarious.
Now do the one where you pretend Democrats have passed a bill that helped the working class more than it helped Wall St any time in the last forty fucking years, that’s always a riot!
Did you vote for progressives in the primaries?
No? you just want to feel superior by representing the very meme at the top of the page? Sure. Just shut the fuck up until after the election because the rest of us need to be the adult in the room. The simple reality is that thanks to First Past the Post you have exactly two choices.
Pro-fascism or anti-fascism. If you refuse to make a choice, well guess what, thanks to FPtP, you’ve chosen pro-fascism. That’s the hell we live in.
If you tell others to not vote, then you’ve again chosen the pro-fascism side and are a piece of shit on top of it.
Tankies won’t but the effort into voting but want to be perceived as serious to actually be marching in the streets.
They have some real criticism of the dem establishment, but no real perspective that they are surrendering office to fascism.
i get called a tankie all the time and i vote in every election from the municipal up.
the democrats are not a serious opposition party, many democrats in blue states are essentially just republicans who learned how to not openly say slurs in college (think people like seth moulton)
they squat on power and are not credible opponents to fascism, only to thier left do they actually put up a fight.
why would they? they have unlimited money and legions of people willing to debase themselves defending any incompetence out of pure team loyalty.
Somehow not defeatism: We have to vote for the democrats, dont you dare think a better world is possible
Did you vote for progressives in the primaries? Actually I don’t care, the primaries are over, you fuck with the dick you’ve got, not the one you wish you had.
I think you need to put more weight on their qualifier word “peacefully”.
Do you have enough guns to fight the US military? No? Well neither do I.
Which is why there are steps that must be followed. And right now those are peaceful protest and voting. Making sure everyone votes.
The time for violence is likely coming, but it has to be after the election. After Trump blatantly ignores the will of the people.
The violence in the street is already happening. The violence in the courtrooms is already happening. The violence in universities is already happening. The violence in the legislative chambers is already happening. The violence at the homes of resistant politicians is already happening. Roll over, if you must.
You sweet summer child, you think you know what violence is. You most certainly do not.
No revolution has ever succeeded without the aid of the military. If the left kicks of the violent resistance too early, the military will not side with us, and in fact will join in the hunting us down part of things.
That’s why we have to follow specific steps. First is peaceful protest. Second is voting.
Third is violence. And if we get steps one and two right, we might not have our homes bombed as we sleep.
Gentlemen may cry, “Peace, peace” - but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
You missed the “vote progressive in the primaries” part
Nope. I spent a decade working my ass off to do that and worked my way up to being a paid campaign staffer for progressive candidates.
I suggest you do the same so that you can learn what I did: the people who control the levers of power in the party will allow progressives to be elected, it helps keep the left flank in line, but they will never allow progressives to have enough power to change the fundamental nature of the party as a machine that turns bribes into Wall St friendly legislation.
Issue with that tactic is that it’s actively being used to justify Chuck Schumer’s “for every big city liberal we alienate, we will gain 3 to 4 hillbillies from the rural area” schtick, which is costing democrats elections and us (the world) the real progressive movement.
Just tell Schumer his shtick cost everyone two presidential elections.
He doesn’t care.
The Democratic leadership would rather lose to the right than win with the left. Because the leadership is far to the right of the base.
The time to argue and complain about candidates is during the primaries. When a candidate for a party has been chosen you vote with the party. Out system is the way it is and no amount of protest votes are going to fix it. Do not vote 3rd party in the general election.
Im going to write in Hillary
No, do NOT do this. This just gives a boundary to the left and none to the right of the Democratic Party.
Always vote for “progressives” (or ideally socialists) in the primary. If you’re in a red state, consider even voting and running in the GOP primary instead.
If your candidate loses the primary, VOTE AGAINST THE PARTY IN THE GENERAL. Make it apparent that they either move to the left, or they lose.
And - crucially - join and form organizations that publicly state they will do exactly this.
Learn from the past challenge
Difficulty: impossible
But why be partisan? Why not vote independently, after an earnest scrutiny of the candidates and issues, for the welfare of the people as a whole? It sounds good and it would be very nice if it would work. It would also be nice if pi were exactly 3.000 instead of a bothersome 3.14159 plus.
There are two reasons, one moral and one practical. The practical reason is this: You simply cannot be effective in politics unless you join in the process of compromise and conciliation whereby free men merge little groups into big groups until they accomplish a government. If you are not partisan you are on your own, everybody is out of step but Johnny, and the chances that you can have any effect on how this country is run are 140,000,000 to one against you.
–Robert A. Heinlein, Take Back Your Government
VOTE AGAINST THE PARTY IN THE GENERAL
No, no, and no. Shit like that is how we got Trump. Stupid protest votes are not what’s needed right now.
Does it suck? Yes. Do you just have to hold your nose and do it? Yes. But voting against things or not voting is what put us in this situation.
The primaries are the time to push things left.
Not just no but hellfuck no.
If you’re a safe vote for the party, there is no reason they should ever even consider what you want when deciding on policy.
The primaries are the time to push things left.
The General is the time to punish sliding right.
Protest votes are exactly what’s needed right now.
Shit like that is how we got Trump
This statement tells me that you still don’t understand why Trump was a viable candidate (remember, wannabe fascist strongmen have run in the Republican primary since forever. They didn’t used to get the time of day from GOP primary voters).
Shit like voting Blue No Matter Who even after the Clintons sold the party body and soul to Wall St is how we got Trump. Ending Welfare as we know it is how we got Trump. Running on codifying Roe and abandoning the idea before the inauguration party hangovers have cleared is how we got Trump. Refusing to prosecute torture under Bush II and extending the Bush Tax Cuts is how we got Trump. Passing “insurance reform” that didn’t create a public option and did give private health insurance corps 5 consecutive quarters of record profits is how we got Trump. Using Ukraine as a pawn to fight a proxy war with Russia is how we got Trump.
I could go on, but if you refuse to see it with all that then there’s no hope for you anyway.
Shit like that is how we got Trump. Stupid protest votes are not what’s needed right now.
It literally is not. Go do the math yourself - there is literally not ONE state where protest votes, even counting right wing ones, made up the difference Kamala lost by.
The problem is that people, RIGHTFULLY SO, see that there’s no effect to their vote, and don’t bother voting for Democrats.
You want to fix that, you clean out the Democratic Party. And the way you do that is exactly how I describe above. You want to not have to fight the leadership, you’re going to continue to get the same failure you have for over 2 decades now. And that is how you got Trump.
I think you underestimate the number of people who protest voted by refusing to vote at all, which is neither an actual protest vote nor the same type of problem. Not that I think it would have been a guaranteed tipping point, but it sure would have made things a bit closer. Compound that with one of the (designed) effects of the electoral college (devaluing voter turnout in high-population states), and you widen that gap much more.
“America will have the most lethal military” and other signalings in favor of status quo imperialism sure did kill any interest for many left wingers to vote, and anecdotally I know many of my left-proclaiming peers took that as reason to forego the polls altogether.
I think you underestimate the number of people who protest voted by refusing to vote at all
So what you’re actually trying to say is that people not voting is how we got Trump? Because calling not votes protest votes is just beyond confusing.
You’re not incorrect - but honestly, blaming the voters rather than the candidate seems insane. Especially since 7 million more voters HAD come out in 2020, and the Democrats avoided even the appearance of a primary in 2024.
but it sure would have made things a bit closer
horseshoes and grenades
Why yes, I have noticed the pre-election uptick of posts like this designed to prep the masses to slavishly vote for whatever do-nothing Biden/Kamala/Hillary joke candidate the establishment will be choosing for us next time. If Kamala won we’d all be having brunch right now, right?
I would have been able to afford brunch right now yes.
And all the people who never could still wouldn’t have. Yay status quo! (Especially when I’m the one well off in that status quo 🤓)
AMERICA WAS ALWAYS GREAT, amirite fellow kids?
I’m homeless.
Edit: apparently these people dislike the homeless.
and you’d be able to afford brunch under Kamala?
You know how you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.
It’s better to take constant bites, no matter how small, than vomit up everything you’ve eaten in 20 years while you imagine being done.
You can keep waiting for perfection, but it probably won’t be here before damnnation.
And how has that strategy been working in America since the 80s for you? Let me guess, we just need to suck it up for a few more decades… Just a few more candidates we don’t really like. How many years before we get to vote for someone that we actually like, in your estimation?
Never. These are already his preferred candidates and he just wants you to shut up and eat your slop like a good little boy.
Vote in a primary. This election is either the rise of the DSA, or they’re seen as unelectable and curtains.
Holy fucking cope. This country is and has been lost to fascism and authoritarianism for a long fucking time. Fuck, most people were raised and conditioned (I.e. propagandized) to believe what you commented here. I’ve been on this earth damn near 40 years and EVERY election has been the so called “most important election of our lifetime.” And to be honest me, the person you’re replying to, and the majority of this country have FUCKING HAD IT with the swinging pendulum. Fuck your lesser of 2 evils bullshit, that’s led us nowhere but down the path of evil and greed. We (the USA) get whatever is coming to us. And believe me when I say it will likely be worse than Trump.
Your solution is to throw your hands in the air and cry defeat?
Crying helps nada, If you don’t like it, please do something about it. Make another option a valid option; Put up, or shut up.
Why do you people always do this? You get told that doing this one specific action, which you slavishly insist upon - despite it only ever making things worse, does not work; and you somehow take this to mean “do nothing at all.”
You keep dishonestly insisting that leftists say you should do nothing and that the leftist critique is somehow that any incompability is reason enough not to vote, when the reality is these posts always end up with people pointing out that there’s a bunch of stuff to do and the democrats are the same as the republicans - not just sort of slightly a tiny bit not good enough.
If youre gonna do this bullshit, at least represent the other side honestly.My solution is to build community and ground as many people to the reality of the situation as I can. Something I actively work on with friends and neighbors. I’d say that has more of an impact than “voting blue no matter who” ever did.
And if I follow your strategy, I’m seriously asking here - how many years before I get to vote for president for someone that I actually like? Like let’s say Mamdani - how long do you think it’ll be before I can vote for someone like him for president, according to you? I don’t wanna be called a perfectionist or a dreamer here, because I’ve specifically picked a real elected person.
2 years, in theory, if enough people spend it organizing and crafting a real movement too strong to ignore, big enough to kick down the doors and make it happen. Longer if they don’t, never if they won’t.
If you are being genuine, this might be a help to you: https://chapters.dsausa.org/
Thanks for at least allotting some probability to me being genuine. The one thing I can’t stand these days is people acting like everyone who disagrees with them is doing it in bad faith.
I am not sure what exactly you’re suggesting, though.
But we also know that neoliberal Democratic Party elites offer a tepid vision of “inclusiveness” that refuses to challenge the oligarchic nature of U.S. society.
https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/history/#founding
Seems more in line with what I’ve been saying than what you’ve been saying, honestly. It’s certainly agreeable to me, but if this is an organization you feel a kinship with…I can’t help but feel that the kinds of memes I often see you posting are contrary to their goals. Unintentionally, I believe. Honestly, most of the left-divisive content I see in Lemmy comes from you in particular, to the point that when I see some of these things I think “did Godric post this? Oh, yep”.
I’ll always keep reconsidering what actions I can take. Hope you’ll do the same
I’m suggesting you find your people and drag the american people left in a tangible way. I will take any useful ally in the fight against fascism, cheers to a moment of understanding!
I firmly believe"Electorism bad" and “both sides bad, a month before election day” jagoffs are useless or stooges for redcaps, so I will continue to mock them. I genuinely hope they prove me wrong and do something constructive.
Right, like the primaries in 2016 that got rigged or the ones in 2020 that got rigged or the ones in 2024 that didnt happen?
So step one is you talk about how you shouldn’t complain about having to eat the elephant and nothing can change and that people shouldn’t complain. Then you force feed people shit while giving the elephant a gun.
Whining and shaming over people being unhappy with the bullshit response the Democrats have in response to the kleptomaniac fascists running the country isn’t helpful.
People should be fucking pissed and they should be doing the work to help their communities. Food not bombs, getting involved locally. Voting for anyone that is for ranked choice voting.
What they don’t need to do is constantly wag their finger about how you have to vote blue no matter who after the blue just lost the easiest fuckig election in history
Complain all you want, just keep nibbling! Two small steps forward is better than a giant leap back, even if you prefer a leap forward.
I don’t prefer a leap forward, the planet fucking requires one. It is melting lol
And the Democrats are like a pause in the walk forward and rarely an actual step. They just put a nicer face on their horrors and usually do better for the imperial core
I’m not an accelerationist but trump has really got a lot of people to wake up to the fact that it truly is socialism or barbarism right now.
And the Democrats are like a pause in the walk forward and rarely an actual step.
How is that not objectively better than a leap backwards?
I’m not an accelerationist but trump has really got a lot of people to wake up to the fact that it truly is socialism or barbarism right now.
Which is great if you’re not one of the victims of the barbarism I guess. Personally, I don’t have the stomach to sacrifice others for political gain.
Which is great if you’re not one of the victims of the barbarism I guess. Personally, I don’t have the stomach to sacrifice others for political gain.
They said as they bemoaned people not being willing to vote for a genocidal fascist (who probably wouldn’t increase the price of gas as much).
Seems like you’re very comfortable with sacrificing others for political nothing though.A genocidal fascist was going to win either way. This one seemed more genocidal from the outset, and the last two years corroborates that.
It’s not about the people who would have suffered either way, I can’t presently do anything about that but I’m trying. It’s about all the extra people who are suffering now: immigrants in death camps, victims of slashed social programs, the dead Iranians on the other side of that expensive gas.
I can’t save Palestine right now. I lack the leverage. But I could’ve helped save many of the others, and you could’ve too. It works better together. Don’t get distracted by the horrors you can’t fix, focus on the ones where you can at least slow the bleeding
Personally, I don’t have the stomach to sacrifice others for political gain
Unless those others are brown kids in the third world, Black men in prison, or undocumented, amirite?
Bcs if you’re still seriously saying that voting for Kamala Harris was objectively better than abstaining or voting third party then you absolutely were willing to throw those people under the bus for political gain.
Once again, the people who are going to suffer either way do not affect my choice. But this administration has been objectively worse for the undocumented, so I’m not sure what your point is. Abstaining and voting third party helped this anti-immigrant administration win.
voting for Kamala Harris was objectively better than abstaining or voting third party
It objectively was. Neither abstaining nor voting third party helped those people, and now more of them are suffering than would have under the Harris administration. Based on the logic of abstainers/third party voters, they’re the ones throwing people under the bus to try to “send a message” to the DNC.
Voting for the democrats is not a step forward. Actually engage with what people are saying you disingenuous asshole.
Gas would probably still be under $3/gal, so I’d be more willing to drive and get brunch, yes.
Also the brunch wouldn’t have salmonella, and the side salad wouldn’t have explosive diarrhea.
But you’re right. It would be pretty bad. I don’t this she would give me a free pony, nor would she dissolve the state in favor of an anarcho-syndicalist commune.
Meanwhile all the people in America who have suffered systematically for decades would continue to suffer systematically. No denying things would have been great under Kamala for people who were privileged all along.
If the people suffering systematically is a constant between the two options, then how is it relevant to the choice? Rational people make choices based on the differences in outcomes between the options.
Haven’t we seen a significant uptick in the systematic suffering of historically suffering people under this administration? Between “the status quo” and “worse than the status quo”, isn’t the status quo the best short term solution if you actually care about the people who are suffering? Is their suffering reduced in any way because you make a principled stand against the status quo?
It seems like you’re just feeding marginalized people to fascists in exchange for getting to say you didn’t vote for the neo-lib. I don’t see how that helps the marginalized people, seems like something a privileged person would do because they can afford to not care about the result of elections.
If the people suffering systematically is a constant between the two options, then how is it relevant to the choice?
This is like saying “if my infected wound is going to sting whether I leave it alone or put disinfectant on it, then how is it relevant to the choice?” The answer is that one of the choices, while still shitty and possibly even more painful, creates the possibility for a better future despite the present.
Voting for the corporate neolibs IS what makes more fascist candidates viable. Not voting for them is what forces the party to offer legitimate opposition to fascism and representation of the lower class. Yes, abstaining makes things worse in the short term, in exchange for the possibility of making things better in the long term.
The only reason Trump was ever a viable candidate is because of people using your reasoning being unwilling to take that short term bitter pill for the last 40 years.
It seems like you’re just feeding marginalized people to fascists in exchange for getting to say you didn’t vote for the neo-lib.
I love when people trot out this argument, because it’s exactly what you’re doing, on a LARGER scale and in a subtler way than you accuse me of doing.
I didn’t skip voting so I could win some community respect. It’s not exactly a popular stance (unlike yours) in case you haven’t noticed. I did it despite the economic, safety, AND social consequences because I truly believe it was the only way to make the possibility of a better future.
The answer is that one of the choices, while still shitty and possibly even more painful, creates the possibility for a better future despite the present.
I have the right to decide to suffer the sting of disinfectant, it’s my body. I don’t have the right to condemn others for the sake of political expedience.
Not voting for them is what forces the party to offer legitimate opposition to fascism and representation of the lower class.
No it doesn’t. When has it ever done that? Typically it just pushes them right to try to get more centrists.
Vote for the leftists in the primary. That’s what forces them. You don’t appeal to them, you annex them.
Not voting is literally doing nothing. It is not the crystal clear communication signal you think it is, it’s literally nothing.
Correct.
Of course, they’re still suffering under Trump, and now they get to pay twice as much for gas. Maybe the explosive diarrhea provides an alternative, rocket-powered form of transportation?
I’m also sure that you give a great many fucks about the poor and the downtrodden. The bigliest of fucks.
I give more fucks than you since I was willing to make my life worse in order to create the possibility for an eventual actual turnaround in the Democratic Party. And lo and behold we now have the most progressive representation in nearly a century in New York - even then with an uphill battle against the establishment. Meanwhile you were only willing to vote for the person that would maintain your personal comfortable status quo, everyone else be damned. Keep on projecting “bigly”, clever boy
Well, it would have also maintained the status quo for the people of Iran. Which by extension would probably have maintained the status quo for people in Lebanon, Syria, parts of the West Bank…ya know, greater Israel.
I’m sure those 100-150ish elementary school girls in that one Iranian school, not to mention thousands of others, are moved by your suffering.
Moved rapidly into multiple pieces, then collected and moved to a graveyard, that is. They thank you for your sacrifice, certain in your heroism.
Wait, I thought the suffering of third-worlders was NOT supposed to be a deal-breaker for Kamala fans? 😂
No, I think you just made that up to justify creating more suffering at home and abroad.
I hope you’re proud.
BlueMAGA, now as into conspiracy theories as their red bretheren, and for the same reasons.
I’m sorry you’re worried that the Democrats strategy of doing nothing might not pay off, and that endorsing genocide still is such a loser issue. But that doesn’t mean the people refusing to share your party loyalty over any common sense are part of a conspiracy, foreign or domestic.
Let me say as a person who used to care about elections for self interest and humanitarian reasons but at this point kind of no longer gives much of a shit about elections other than being fueled by self interest and a new sense of deep and bitter spite:
Voting for a party doesn’t equal party loyalty. Pointing out that one party is significantly worse than the one you think people should vote for isn’t party loyalty either. You can hate both parties and still vote for one and have good reasons to do so and encourage others to do the same with good reasons to do so.
Either you are an imbecile and don’t know what words mean and shouldn’t be posting and embarrassing yourself or you are a scumbag liar pretending to not know what words mean. In either case everyone should ignore you.
To what end?
Let’s frame it this way,
A Mafia is in town (the ultra wealthy that can avoid laws and punishment)
You can either vote for the mafioso that gives out SOME gifts to the community WHILE STILL CONSOLIDATING POWER AND TRANSFERRING WEALTH, or, they can send their enforcers out to make sure that they can FORCIBLY CONSOLIDATE POWER AND TRANSFER WEALTH.
“Heads I win, Tails you lose”
Hakeem Jeffries is secretly meeting with Kushner. That is the mark of a treasonous pedophile supporter and the unmasking of the controlled opposition party.
Voting democrat will only continue the charade
In the end we’re all dead. Right now I’d like to live in a world not run by fascists. Simple as that. People lives, including my own and yours, would be better if fascists were not in power.
Additionally, Hakeem Jefferies is not the only democrat. There are many democrats and some are worse or better. While essentially every republican is a monster or at best an unhinged lunatic.
Jefferies also is, even as a empty husk of a politician, better than an ideological fascist. Because if socialists were in power, Hakeem Jefferies would be incentivized to work with them to maintain power, while in the current instance, he is incentivized to work with fascists.
Jefferies is not an ideologue. He’s a power loyalist.
Right now I’d like to live in a world not run by fascists.
The democrats are also fascists, so voting for them would get you nowhere
Average Trump XO:
“Both sides same tho”
I’m glad you think that a meaningless Easter message is worth the lives of hundreds of thousands of people in Gaza, along with any electoral future for the left in the US.
You can just go out and say you don’t actually care about policies that affect people’s lives, it’s faster. Roe overturned, ICE on the streets, an incomprehensible amount of lifesaving aid to the most desperate people in the world cut, but “both sides same”.
How are the Palestinians doing under Trump?
Hint:
The palestinians are being genocided under Trump, just as they were under Biden. That doesn’t really matter to you though, you see genocide as a fringe issue that you can use as a cheap dunk. You somehow only started to pretend to care when your team wasn’t in charge.
Biden deported more people than Trump, Kamala ran on being harsher on immigration than Trump, ICE was made permanent by Obama.
USAID was a front for regime change, as well as an aid organisation. It is debatable whether it did more good or bad.
Roe was overturned under Biden, and he was warned before it happened, yet did nothing. Roe could have been codified under Obama, yet it wasn’t. The Supreme Court is packed with right wing justices because the democrats allowed it to be + hubris. They wanted RGB to retire under a Hillary presidency, yet she was already decrepit as fuck beforehand.
Somehow this is the lefts fault.Roe overturned
That happened under Biden. You know, when people did exactly that Vote Blue No Matter Who nonsense you’re advocating?
ICE on the streets
Again, the Democrats have supported ICE and continue to fund it.
You’re literally providing examples of why you’re wrong.
but “both sides same”.
Only one who has said that is you. The point exactly is that the Democrats are similar enough to the GOP to where you should not support them as they are.
Ahh yes because the common people all voted for the Supreme Court justices lmfao
Alright, then don’t bring up the Supreme Court or Supreme Court decisions as an argument.
Who appointed the justices?
Is ICE doing the same thing this year as they did 2 years ago?
Are you this wildly misinformed, or are you jerking my chain here?
Who appointed the justices?
Who let them be appointed? Who did fuck all about it? Who, hubristically, assumed victory and thus let yet another geriatric sit forever until she died? Who did nothing to get their justices in, when they could’ve? Who used NONE of the tools available to them to get rid of the justices that were there?
Is ICE doing the same thing this year as they did 2 years ago?
No. They’re doing the same, in a more blatant manner, which makes you notice and care.
Roe overturned
On June 24, 2022, the Court issued a decision
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobbs_v._Jackson_Women's_Health_Organization
Blaming principled leftists for the Dems complete lack of will to even try to protect reproductive rights is such a reach.
All the left-kickers can ever do is blame leftists for their own failures. Somehow it’s leftists’ fault that the Democrats sat on their hands and let Republicans shove justices through during the Trump admin, it’s the leftists’ fault that RBG didn’t retire, it’s the leftists’ fault that Democrats didn’t pass laws to make abortion legal nationwide. Somehow Republicans can do everything they want instantly and Democrats can do nothing, but God help you if you say they suck shit.
The comments are heartening. The parties are more alike than they are dissimilar. One is a better class of criminal, for sure, but neither is worth supporting carte blanche. There are a handful of elected Democrats who are worth supporting, but the longer they are exposed to the DNC “moderates,” the more they expose themselves to the weakness that most humans succumb to.
Show me a Blue No Matter Who voter, and I’ll show you someone who willingly gives their time and money to a billionaire who owns a pro sports team that already has ripped off the community they live in for millions of dollars in ballpark deals.
I think the problem is that in a system with first past the post voting and single district representation, the few Democrats who are worth supporting require the rest of the center right Dems to have a majority to have any real influence or access to power.
That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be extremely critical of center right Democrats, just that there is some benefit to voting for a party that you mostly disagree with. The only real route if you still think the democratic process holds any water is to primary the center right and force the party’s hand from the ground up.
We’ve recently seen that entryism is possible in modern politics, at least for conservatives… Whether or not it’s possible for progressives is still to be determined.
You’re right, and that’s why I vote Trump for a third term! They’re all the same after all.
Talk about perfectly exemplifying the people the post is making fun of…
Well this comment section is a fucking dumpster fire. I guess MAGA trolls are back on the menu, bois.
The beauty of your comment is that both sides of this argument can agree with you, confident you’re secretly talking about the other half.
Its almost as if these posts are put up to be divisive, and to keep any opposition to the current right wing neoliberal order divided. Huh.
Do you think the Democratic Party opposes the neoliberal order?
TIL Pelosi is the only democrat.
Democrats and liberals by definition are pro capitalism. Stop conflating leftists and liberals. Leftism begins at anti capitalism.
Liberalism historically from its inception has believed people have certain rights, right to “free market “ as they say is one of those. In the US Democrats also go by liberal, but not all liberals and democrats know their position is definitionally pro capitalism and liberal has taken on a definition of left of conservatives/republicans that most Americans have not dug in that far.
TLDR To speak American politics their are conservatives/Republicans and everyone else is liberal, including in that camp progressives, leftists, Bernie Bros, anarchists. To speak Leftist politics, you have Leftists, Anarchists, Liberals (including conservatives, liberals, progressives because all their policies are pro capitalism )
Spoken like someone who can observe objective reality, unlike USA Dems.
I wasn’t arguing with you
Sorry, I think I got caught up on your TLDR. But rereading, yes I can see you’re agreeing. My mistake.
Democrats are a political party, one that hasn’t had a consistent ideological set of beliefs throughout its own existence. For that matter neither has the republican party.
They are not “by definition” pro capitalism.
They 1000% are pro capitalism in the United States. You’re eithe fucking stupid, or not a citizen of the USA to think democrats are not pro capitalism.
Well, they’ve always been capitalist. There’s never been a time when they weren’t capitalist. So… odd argument to make.
You and @Space_Cowboy92 don’t seem to have the best reading comprehension.
I was refuting that democrats are “by definition” pro capitalist. Not whether the party leadership always had an explicit pro capitalist agenda. Those are different things.
Now, I did say their ideology has changed, which is also true. I said that to support my argument, but it was not the point I was making in of itself.
Weaseling in a word that indicates an immutable and intrinsic trait to something that is not immutable in that way and then subtly backpedaling to a different stance is slimy.
Yes, in theory, if we remove all the current leadership, the Democrats could not be capitalist.
And, given how US election law is written, which has carve outs for the Dems all over the place to avoid 3rd parties, that is what is needed.
But the Democrats as they now and in all times past have been are capitalist.
Did you know she was speaker of the house? That’s, like, a big deal.
It doesn’t matter what random Democrats think (obviously), it matters what the leadership thinks.
This is almost repeating the argument that is literally what the OP is getting at.
The point is democrats and republicans are not the fucking same and people who say they are are not serious people or worth serious consideration.
So, to repeat the question, do you think the Democratic Party, of which Pelosi is a leader and not even the most right wing one, opposes the neoliberal order?
That isn’t the question, that is a pivot, but fuck it I’ll bite.
Do you really need to fucking use the term “neoliberal order”? You sound like you are talking about an evil cabal in Deus Ex. I can’t take it seriously. Just say capitalism. Do they oppose capitalism as a whole party? No.
But some of them individually certainly seem to and the ones talking to most leftwing politics are doing generally pretty decently right now in primaries and generals.
But whatever, really at this point who fucking cares? No one gives a fuck about reality anymore and the world is going to collapse into garbage regardless. Getting democrats at this point is just an opiate vs getting republicans which would be more like being fucked by a knife on our collective deathbed.
Give me the drug. I prefer the drug over the knife fucking. OK? Its that simple.
Carrying the flame, even.
Yes, I’ve noticed. The electoralists have started their screeching as they do very two years. They’re like cicadas.
Idk for US politics but at least in France change came much faster from outside of the pseudo left party Democat equivalent (PS) rather than inside. By fast I mean 10+ years but still the leftist party that is in best place to win présidentiel election broke all links with the establishment and that how they won popular vote.
Nice job, France! In the US, you need 51% of the votes, so the system only works with 2 major parties. Change needs be internal, as splitting the party is a suicide pact.
In America, writing off the party entirely and refusing to play the game is almost as stupid as the suicide pact option, if you want your policies to be made reality. Not the system I love, but it’s the system we have.
What a silly, ahistorical, uneducated thing to say.
👍
Look into things beyond cultural osmosis
You think you might get met with better replies if you don’t act in obvious bad faith; or if you didn’t onstruct ridiculous strawmen positions to argue against, instead of relating to the actual arguments those you disagree with present?
You are being treated with derision because you treat others the same way. What goes around comes around, and what you go around with is condescention, despite the fact you have a child-like grasp on the topic at hand and the basic process of communication.
Yes, this OP is an uptick in bullshit fascism.
TIL “Be against the literal fascists” is bullshit fascism
They’re both fascists.
It is when your solution is to support the other group of fascists.
So many people talking about how they don’t care about who is elected next resounds of the remarkable privelage of someone who doesn’t need to care about the result. Like calling against “”" Blue MAGA"“” and “Vote Blue No Matter Who.”
I’m a trans person, who exactly are you asking me to vote for? Have you ever seen a republican politician. Describe to me which republican politician doesn’t want to take away the rights of trans people?
To you they may mean nothing, to me it’s everything and you CANNOT convince me by insulting me. The democrats wish to use people like me as a token, it’s degrading, digusting, and I hate them every step of the way. The republicans want me dead.
These two sides are different and if you wish for me to vote someone different get someone on stage who gives a shit about people like me and I’ll vote for them under any banner. Until then the future is looking pretty blue.
This comment section right here is all the proof that there will be no salvation in November.
Every pig-ignorant savior is so absolutely certain that their ideologically pure solution is the only acceptable way to fix anything that everyone is going to cancel each other out and it’s just going to continue sliding towards the cliff edge.
Under NO circumstances attempt to learn ANY lessons from parliamentary coalitions who banded together to stop the hijacking of their governments by radical fascists despite sweeping policy disagreements. Everyone keep nitpicking every minute detail, make no compromises whatsoever no matter the costs, and make stupid, pointless, self-destructive, aggrandizing gestures so you can talk down to strangers on the internet, and enjoy the ride to hell.
Jokes on you, I’m not eating the shit sandwich, I’m eating the vomit sandwich!
Unironically this. The only reason people are smugly refusing to decide (and trying to convince others to abstain too) is they’re insulated from the consequences, often via privilege or distance.
If anyone truly had to take a bite, they’d choose the vomit sandwich.
To me, we on the left reinforce this idea that both sides are the same when we sink to their level. We don’t need fake videos or out of context clips of him to prove he’s a terrible person. It’s there for all to see in his unfiltered words and actions. Same with the slop about Musk that does the rounds. We don’t need fake stories to spread the word. It’s self-evident in his actual, real life behaviour, and only serves to weaken the truth.
