I think one of the best aspects of the UK is political freedom. Perhaps I am a subject of the King (I don’t know if that’s legally true but it might be), but in any case, I can still say that I hope the UK will get rid of the monarchy and replace it with a democratically elected head of state.
Fair enough, but according to a couple of sites that Wikipedia refers to, Churchill originally didn’t know that the outward facing gesture was rude until he was told about it. If true then I guess his gesture was intended to mean “here is a V for victory” instead of “fuck off you lot” or “fuck the Germans”.
It depends on the context doesn’t it. Lots of people will fly the England flag or wear an England shirt during a football tournament, and all they mean by that is “I support the England team” without a further political meaning. But the meaning of the current flag-flying from lamp posts seems to essentially be “we don’t want immigrants in the UK” which can make the flags intimidating (which is probably the exact intention).
Here’s another example of context changing meaning. Churchill used to give a two-fingered salute (see picture below), and his intended meaning of that salute was that it was a “V” for “victory” in WW2. But of course these days, that same outwards two-fingered salute means “fuck off”. Context changes the meaning.
Absolutely true. I didn’t mean to imply that you said that. I was just thinking about people on the left (not necessarily yourself) who didn’t vote for Kamala because she wasn’t critical enough of Israel. In America’s political system, especially in swing states, not voting for the Democrat candidate makes it more likely that the Republican candidate will win.
I did in fact address your drivel repeatedly
Where? You implied that Ukrainian “officials” have been “proudly posing in front of nazi symbols while in office”. In reality you just showed that some Ukrainian fighters have displayed far-right symbols, but as I showed, there have been fighters on the Russian side who have displayed far-right symbols too. Neither case means that the Ukrainian or Russian governments themselves are necessarily fascist (but I think the Russian government is closer to fascism, given their worse record regarding democracy and liberalism).
they openly say that they follow Bandera ideology
No they don’t. In 2022, after Russia’s launched their renewed invasion of Ukraine, Zelenskyy fired Ukraine’s ambassador to Germany, because the ambassador had made controversial comments about Bandera in an interview (he had said “Bandera was not a mass murderer of Jews and Poles”). Ukraine’s foreign ministry stated that they did not agree with the ambassador’s remarks: “the opinion that the ambassador… expressed in an interview with a German journalist is of his own and does not reflect the position of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine”.
So clearly it’s not true that the Ukrainian government “openly say[s] that they follow Bandera ideology”. In fact they are not tolerating comments that could be seen as supportive of Bandera.
literal nazi battalions like Azov
Let’s look at a different view of Azov:
Michael Colborne, who wrote a book about the Azov movement and leads Bellingcat’s work on the global far right, said the unit’s focus appears to have shifted over time from ideology to military effectiveness.
He said that any remaining far-right elements within Azov probably would continue to be “diluted” as the unit grows and that the issue had become less important as Ukraine confronts an existential threat.
I think Bellingcat are a reliable source for things like this. They’re the same people who identified the two Russian military intelligence officers who carried out the 2018 poisoning in Salisbury, England.
None of this is happening in Russia
I looked up a bit more about the neo-Nazi, pro-Russia Rusich Group which I previously mentioned. Apparently they are “a Wagner Group contingent” (that source is yet another to describe Rusich as “neo-Nazi”). Let’s remember that Wagner were funded by the Russian state. So the Russian state has been funding neo-Nazis to fight for Russia.
In fact, Russia has been the country that has put out UN resolutions on combating fascism, and the countries that voted against it were the US and Ukraine
You should probably try to understand a bit better how propaganda works. Then you will realise why Russia does things like this.
you’re just really dedicated to making a clown of yourself
Not at all. I am showing you real facts and reliable assessments. So now the question is, can you refute any of what I’ve said? If you want to stop here, like you said, then that’s fine. What it means is that you have failed to demonstrate that the Ukrainian government is fascist. As I said before, I think Russia’s government is closer to fascism than Ukraine’s government is, due to Russia’s less democratic political system, and Russia’s less liberal laws (e.g. LGBT laws).
You’re saying Ukraine is run by fascists but you didn’t address the points I previously raised which, I think, demonstrate that Ukraine’s government is not fascist. If anything, Russia’s government is closer to fascism than Ukraine’s is. I’ll quote what I said before to see if you can actually refute it this time:
Here’s what Encyclopaedia Britannica says about fascism:
Both Ukraine and Russia are quite militaristic at the moment due to the war (which was started by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine). But when it comes to democracy and liberalism, I would say Ukraine embraces those ideas more than Russia currently does. Shortly after Russia’s renewed 2022 invasion of Ukraine, Zelenskyy applied for Ukraine to join the EU. The EU is an institution which supports democracy and liberalism, and while it might not always perfectly pursue those ideals, I would say it is definitely more democratic and liberal than Putin’s Russia is. Russia throws protestors in prison with long sentences. Russia has poisoned dissidents such as Alexander Litvinenko, Alexei Navalny, and likely Vladimir Kara-Murza. Russia has been anti-liberal in recent years, demonstrated by their anti-LGBT laws.
Can you actually demonstrate that Ukraine’s current government is a fascist government, and crucially, can you demonstrate that it is closer to fascism than Russia’s government is? If you say “oh look here are some Ukrainian soldiers with far-right symbols”, then guess what, I already showed you some Russian soldiers with far-right symbols. So that argument would not show that Ukraine’s government is closer to fascism than Russia’s is.
Let’s say there are some far-right Ukrainian fighters. That doesn’t mean all Ukrainian soldiers are far-right or fascists; nor does it mean that the Ukrainian government is fascist. On the Russian side, there appear to be some neo-Nazi fighters, but that doesn’t mean that Putin is automatically a Nazi.
Here are some articles which talk about far-right and apparently neo-Nazi Russian fighters:
In fact, that first article features a photo, shown below. You can see a patch on the soldier’s arm, which features a Kolovrat, a symbol that is popular with far-right Slavic movements. The patch resembles what the article describes as the symbol of the Rusich Group (“a twisting wheel - the pagan sign of the sun, one of the other symbols of the DSRG ‘Rusich’”), and the article describes this group as containing “neo-Nazis”. Wikipedia also describes the Rusich Group as a “neo-Nazi” group.
Here is a different source which says the Rusich Group “holds extreme right-wing, neo-Nazi beliefs”.
TLDR: It’s weird that you seem outraged by far-right Ukrainians, but not outraged by far-right Russians.
You can throw around insults like a baby can throw their toys out of a pram, but you’re not really saying anything substantive.
It’s Ukraine and not Russia where open fascists are in charge of the government
Is Zelenskyy a fascist? Here’s what Encyclopaedia Britannica says about fascism:
Both Ukraine and Russia are quite militaristic at the moment due to the war (which was started by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine). But when it comes to democracy and liberalism, I would say Ukraine embraces those ideas more than Russia currently does. Shortly after Russia’s renewed 2022 invasion of Ukraine, Zelenskyy applied for Ukraine to join the EU. The EU is an institution which supports democracy and liberalism, and while it might not always perfectly pursue those ideals, I would say it is definitely more democratic and liberal than Putin’s Russia is. Russia throws protestors in prison with long sentences. Russia has poisoned dissidents such as Alexander Litvinenko, Alexei Navalny, and likely Vladimir Kara-Murza. Russia has been anti-liberal in recent years, demonstrated by their anti-LGBT laws.
they’re literally posing in front of nazi symbols
I think I said in a previous post that there are far-right people in many countries, including in Russia. See here and here. Here is an instance of Nazi symbols in France, but that doesn’t mean France is ruled by a “fascist regime”. It likely just indicates that there are some far-right people in France.
I think you misspelled Russia because Russia is the country that doesn’t have free and fair elections and which is waging an imperialist war, supported by far-right figures like Dugin. Ukraine is currently not having elections due to the invasion of their country, but the last few elections they did have seem to have been much more democratic than Russia’s “elections”.
Politicians can change their mind though if there is enough political pressure on them. I just think it’s weird logic to think “I don’t like what is happening in Gaza so I would rather see Trump elected to the White House than Kamala Harris”. Since Trump has a history of being strongly pro-Israel and he doesn’t seem to have a lot of sympathy for civilians who are suffering.
Almost immediately after coming to power in 2014, the Ukrainian government started banning opposition parties
There were still big pro-Russia parties so Ukrainians who liked the idea of stronger ties with Russia had parties they could vote for.
The whole situation is a tragedy and a mess.
That’s very true.
Russia and China don’t set the time that I go to bed…
Anyway, I think Russia should withdraw their invasion of Ukraine and allow Ukrainians to make their own democratic decisions. If Ukrainians want more integration with Russia then okay, or if they want to join NATO and the EU then okay.
they were shut out of the political process by having their parties banned
The banning of pro-Russia parties apparently happened after Russia launched its 2022 invasion of Ukraine, so the banning can’t be a justification for the invasion.
we’re talking about grabbing people off the streets, giving them a rifle, and forcing them to the front
I hope that doesn’t happen and I hope Ukrainian people can choose whether they want to fight or not. I also think though that Russia shouldn’t be taking land and lives by force, and they also shouldn’t be trying to install their own puppet regime in Kyiv.
I’m talking about Lemmy.ml specifically. Some people on that instance might be sensible and smart. But then there’s people like you who defend authoritarian and imperialist behaviour by Russia and China for some reason.
If you thought Kamala wasn’t paying enough attention to suffering in Palestine, you could have protested and lobbied her to pay more attention to this issue, while still voting for her as president, on the basis that Trump is even more pro-Israel and even less sympathetic to Palestinians.
Literally nobody here is buying what you’re selling
Doesn’t surprise me that Lemmy.ml lacks common sense.
Okay I said maybe we shouldn’t talk about where we disagree but I think I disagree with those points about Ukraine. I think it was the elected parliament of Ukraine who voted to remove Yanukovych, rather than a “bunch of armed men” who voted. As for the Russian-backed referendums in the Donbas, I don’t trust them myself, given Russia’s history of ballot stuffing and the state deliberately harming political opponents.
I think the best outcome would be if the war immediately ends and then every oblast (in Ukraine and in Russia) could have a free and fair election regarding their future. If some Ukrainian oblasts vote in a free and fair election to join Russia then fair enough. In any case, unfortunately the war will very likely grind on.
Sure, I think Ukraine is a flawed democracy. More democratic than Russia in my estimation, but that isn’t a high bar to clear. I hope Ukrainians can vote in the near future on whether to continue the war. Or alternatively the Ukrainian government should hopefully respect the results of reliable polling.
If you think your domestic priorities are more important than foreign issues, that’s fair enough. When you claim Yanukovych’s removal from power counts as an “overthrow”, I’m not sure I agree with that, because Ukraine’s parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from power. But anyway, maybe there is not much point in talking about where you and I disagree, because that could go on forever. I think we agree on some points, like the fact that Ukrainians are unfortunately suffering, and the fact that corporations (including defence companies) are too greedy, at the expense of hospitals and such like.
You don’t have any argument other than “Ukraine bad”. You can point out some far-right members of Ukraine’s military, and sure, such people might exist, but I expect there are some far-right people within the militaries of most countries.
In Russia you have a character like Aleksandr Dugin strongly supporting Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Dugin has been described by WaPo and the WSJ as “far-right”. People like him are driving the invasion of Ukraine.
You support a far-right invasion of another country but maybe you are too stupid to even understand what you’re supporting.
Reform UK is only supported by about a third of the electorate at the moment. More than any other single party, but if there was an election for a British head of state, and that election ended up being a choice between Farage and one other person, Farage could very well lose.
Also you said in another post that “President Farage could remove elections”. I think that if we have an elected head of state then they should only have similar powers to what the King has now. Parliament should still be sovereign.