- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
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Here’s a map of the global freedom status, and Russia seems to be in the same group with most of Africa Middle East and Asia. Considering this context, the news article doesn’t seem surprising at all. Just another sad day in Russia.
The makers of this map, Freedom House, receive funding mainly from the US government. They also took money from BAE Systems, Britain’s biggest arms manufacturer.
And your point would be…
The argument would be that their findings are therefore somehow tainted and unreliable. However, without any evidence that this is so, simply pointing it out as if it’s some kind of “gotcha” is in fact fallacious, as you suggest.
Yeah, well it might not be the best source, but at least they have a map that measures something interesting. The second best option would have been the map of press freedom index. It’s not quite the same things and it isn’t entirely relevant to the conversation either, but there you go. At least it tells you something about the attitude different countries have towards the media, which may or may not be associated with the attitude towards activists. This map also paints a slightly more nuanced picture, but the conclusion is largely the same as before.
See also: Wikipedia
Ukraine’s being yellow is just wrong. It doesn’t really matter if it’s fair, but with the ongoing war and the effects of it on the society and its attitudes towards press the color should be orange.
Well, there’s less bias typical for UK-funded sources than usual. At least Azerbaijan is not the same color as Armenia (thought the UK seem to have made a 180-degree turn on that conflict in the last couple of weeks, while keeping the same “formal”"legal" position).
Ah, that’s OT, about Russia - it would be purple on that map even before 2008.
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So is Turkey, your NATO ally who bombs minorities and steals other peoples cultural heritage. Stop being a hypocrite
Yes Turkey is a controversial country to most of us in NATO. Terrible example.
Turkey is a genocidal horde. Russia one could call controversial before 2022, now it’s just miserable and on its way to becoming a trainwreck.
EDIT: What I meant - it’s a good example, if you just call that “controversial” and not a problem to be solved now, while Russia somehow is.
Big words from someone who just brought three different forms of sharia law into BRICS.
I still don’t fucking understand why tankies simp so hard for this shit. It’s like you are trying to prove that your philosophy is no deeper than “America bad.”
I think you can join the Russian army if you really like the war crines of Russia.
Go and be a landmine exploder for Ukraine if you love freedom so much.
Lemmygrad 🤡
(Also Putin is not a communist, but a post-fascist masquerading as an anti-fascist)
Also Putin is not a communist, but a post-fascist masquerading as an anti-fascist
Wow, so you do actually have eyes! Fucking hell, you are raising my respect for you!
Fun fact, I would nothing but for Putin to get hanged. But not by American imperialists and their lapdogs, but by the russian proletariat for the reestablishment of an RSFSR.
So sorry buddy. It seems your assumption about me has been wrong, I suggest lurking more before speaking about your opponents.
but by the russian proletariat for the reestablishment of an RSFSR.
“Russian proletariat” is mostly ansyn or Trotskyist, when political, just informing you. EDIT: And also it’s a very little portion of the society.
And most of those sporting Commie symbolic just use it cause USSR big, USSR strong, USSR everybody fear, USSR boom, but somehow later boom.
Well your best bet for that to happen is Ukraine crushing Putin’s balls. As long as he has the full support of the nationalists the proletariat can eat bark
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Unfortunately NATO wasn’t designed in a way that conceived of a rogue member state like Turkey. This means that it has a very limited toolkit for reigning in Erdogan’s excesses. He also has a huge amount of leverage due to Turkey’s pivotal role on the Black Sea which is obviously critical to everything happening in Ukraine. For now, NATO really does have its hands tied with regard to Turkey.
No, it doesn’t really, they just don’t want to do anything. Everything happening in Ukraine started happening much later than Turkey happened.
And about NATO design not conceiving of something - when Turkey was admitted to NATO, there were people still alive who saw not their parents and grandparents, but their children and grandchildren killed before their eyes in 1915-1921.
It was conceived that if somebody really wanted to get rid of that thing, then it’d be possible to make a shortcut on paperwork with all the military power. 1952, remember. But then again, it was 1952, you know, colonial powers still being that and not caring much about genocides of brown people. So nobody would see Turkey’s current behavior as a problem.
I don’t think I follow your arguments. Is there a way you can rephrase your point such that a dummy like myself might understand it?
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About rogue member states not being thought of when NATO was being created - when NATO was being created, even France and UK were more likely to behave like “rogue member states” and they did in some little known cases (Biafra, for example, or the Suez crisis). And Turkey was full-blown fascist (well, it didn’t stop being that at any point since then till now, just Westerners conveniently assumed that it changed like Japan, say, one my relative in the US from Jewish side is just in complete denial that it hasn’t as it wasn’t civilized by bombs, while at the same time uneasy with my cousins going to Germany).
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About NATO having its hands tied against Turkey due to Ukraine - if A happened before B, you can’t justify A with B. So you can’t justify Turkey getting away with everything it does by Russia vs Ukraine taking all the attention.
I’m not talking about anyone being justified; I am talking about realpolitik and the fact that in international relations it’s often the case that what ought to be is often in direct conflict with what actually is.
It would be awesome if we could live in a world of absolutes wherein national interests never conflicted with moral ambiguity, but that’s just not reality at all, sorry to inform.
And why then it’s a problem that Russia wreaks havoc in Ukraine?..
And I don’t see Western states acting in their best interest anyway. I actually see something between slow surrender to the worst of their competition and some weird kind of “let no one win”, trying to empower the worst savages while simply not working with those of competitors who shouldn’t necessarily be their adversaries. You can also take a look at the people which reach the top in European and US political classes, these are of, eh, declining quality.
Also for my second point - an event in the future still can’t be the cause for an event in the past, justification or not.
Other than that - large parts of NATO \ West “civilization offering”, so to say, were about freedom and human rights.
And large parts of the Soviet alternative were about humanism and equality and unification.
And if it’s casual for you that people were not supposed to believe in any of that in either case, then I don’t get it why people here are so eager to point out Soviet hypocrisies as if they were any different.
It’d be probably also awesome for realpolitik fans to not forget how real world works in terms of errors. Right now an error in your security systems means some protest, some Assange or Snowden, some scandal. Getting into realpolitik too much would shift those errors to justified terrorist acts. Well, I suppose that may be one reason why some countries are so eager to get rid of nuclear energy despite all the green agenda in PR. Single point of failure and all that.
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The best and last argument of dumb tankies is whataboutism. Thank you for your insightful contribution.
I don’t think it’s whataboutism to point out that a worse criminal you are fine with, and a smaller one not, because the latter kills “blue-eyed Europeans” and all that.
You can’t just discard observations that you are a hypocritical bag of piss with that one word, “whataboutism”. And it only refers to somebody defending their own crimes. Most of real whataboutism I see in social media comes from Turks and Westerners defending Turks.
Other than that, if somebody says that and you don’t, I don’t care if they’re a tankie. Turkey is worse than a Stalinist dictatorship, and I have priorities.
Actually, that’s exactly what whataboutism is.
Someone says: wow, topic A is bad.
Whataboutism says: oh yeah, well B is bad/worse!!!1!
Point is, we’re not talking about B/Turkey. And B/Turkey being bad doesn’t mean that A/Russia is excused from their terrible behavior.
And (gasp!) Just because I oppose A/Russia doesn’t mean I support B/Turkey.
The entire argument is bad faith and lacking any logic or critical thinking.
If you support the side opposite to Russia, be it Ukraine or NATO, you sort of support Turkey, cause of the context of alliances and relations. Turkey is in NATO and Turkey is friendly with Ukraine.
Point is, we’re not talking about B/Turkey.
We actually are doing that right now. If you don’t want to, you can leave this conversation. That’s the way conversations work.
And B/Turkey being bad doesn’t mean that A/Russia is excused from their terrible behavior.
Yes, it isn’t. You seem to imply that I said it is. I haven’t.
And (gasp!) Just because I oppose A/Russia doesn’t mean I support B/Turkey.
Not in general. But in our specific situation you sort of do through that opposing side being Turkey’s friend more than Russia itself.
The entire argument is bad faith and lacking any logic or critical thinking.
On all sides.
Now, about bad faith - if people like you yelling “whataboutism” can prevent a conversation on a certain subject, then it’s not really whataboutism. If they can do that without preventing that conversation from happening, then maybe it is. “Whataboutism” is not a basic concept. Once we turn to logic instead of some list of common fallacies, we don’t need it (and also logic beats any such shortcut).
Same with “critical thinking”.
Stop supporting nazis.
Stop the war
I don’t doubt this as it’s happened to others, but Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty is a literal CIA mouthpeice and tends to make stuff up.
Thank you
The problem with the RFA source is the CIA funding, not that it’s in English. It’s pretty disingenuous to try to imply Newizu is pro-Putin or anti-imperialist, or anti-west or anything else that would qualify as a separate bias or agenda.
I don’t think they’re implying anything like that? A Russian source talking about a bad thing Russia did is generally more reliable than a CIA source saying the same thing, since there’s less incentive to make stuff up.
I read the previous comment. I tried to find a source they would prefer.
It literally isn’t. RFE is definitely a US propaganda platform, but it objectively has nothing to do with the CIA these days. But you should probably check under your bed one more time just to make sure.
RFE also “objectively” had nothing to do with the CIA for nearly 20 years after it was created, at which point it turned out the CIA had been funding it all along. But now we know they’ve stopped because they said they did, and anyone suggesting that they’re not editorially independent is a paranoid loon, just as they would’ve been in the 50’s and 60’s.
Some of us don’t believe that the people whose job it is to lie stopped lying because they said they did. Suggesting that the CIA is still doing things that they did regularly and successfully kept hidden in the past is not a conspiracy theory.
RFE is definitely a US propaganda platform, but™️
That’s all you need to know. Scrap the whole source.
The CIA routinely funds groups covertly. As is the case with RFE, we are often able to confirm this covert funding decades later.
A main purpose of the CIA is to obscure what groups the U.S. supports. Did they just stop doing their job one day?
Why? What possibel reason could you have to belive they just turned over a new leaf?
Compared to Russian sources radio free liberty is a baron of truth and press accountability, so frankly it does not matter.
A shitty source not being the absolute worst source doesn’t make it any less shitty than it is. If your only options for news are US government propaganda or Russian government propaganda, the only valid choice is to stop following the news.
At least she didn’t jump out of the window 🌝
Link this whenever people tell you posting doesn’t matter.
Similar thing happened across the border, in Ukraine, with a pacifist being accused of “justifying the war”, as reported by Democracy Now!
Russian pacifists want Russia to stop invading Ukraine.
Lemmygrad / Hexbear pacifists want Ukraine to appease Russia and give up territory.
They are not the same.
Russian pacifists want Russia to stop invading Ukraine.
Western “pacifists” want to send NATO tanks to Ukraine.
They are not the same.
Russian anti-war activists have a correct position.
But an important consideration should be whether one’s actions actually contribute to Russia withdrawing sooner, or if they instead help justify further, equally self-interested NATO involvement in the war.
Unless you are Russian, it’s most likely the latter.
There are two imperialist blocs involved in the conflict, and it doesn’t matter which one of them technically started it.
There are two imperialist blocs involved in the conflict, and it doesn’t matter which one of them technically started it.
I’m sorry, but when it involves one imperialist bloc invading a smaller country, then it does matter.
Do you have the same position regarding the Vietnam war, Palestine, Iraq, and Afghanistan? Or do you only support whichever side is not aligned with the US?
The Vietnam War? You mean the one where a rebel faction backed by Russia rose up against a smaller, recently established pro-Western government, and the US came to the defense of that government, because if they lost the enemy would surely keep expanding more and more across the entire region, and all the peace advocates were dismissed as supporting appeasement? That Vietnam war?
Yes, we take a similar position on that as we do to this, do you?
Vietnam was opposing a puppet government imposed by the US.
The Ukrainians opposed a Russian puppet government in 2013.
Do you support both Vietnam and Ukraine?
I support both the Vietnamese fighting against the South Vietnam puppet government and the Ukranians in the DPR fighting against the current Ukrainian puppet government, yes (though my support for the latter is more critical since they’re not communists)
You did not answer my question.
Did you support the Ukrainians rebelling against their government back in 2013. Or do you only support a side if that side happens to oppose the US?
I literally said that
Russian anti-war activists have a correct position.
Are you aware that it’s possible to want neither NATO tanks nor Russian tanks in Ukraine?
You can even make sure you are consistent with both things in action 100% of the time - it’s a neat little trick called “opposing the position of your own government”.
Are you aware that it’s possible to want neither NATO tanks nor Russian tanks in Ukraine?
I am.
But do you believe Ukraine is able to maintain their territory protected from Russia without NATO’s weapon supply?
He most likely doesn’t believe Ukraine is able to maintain their territory protected from Russia with NATO’s weapon supply, and for good reason, given how clearly this is demonstrated by the utter failure of the vaunted counter-offensive. The only thing your position is really advocating is the useless deaths of vast numbers of Ukrainians (and Russians, for that matter).
The mere fact that they are in the act of a counter offensive after Russia tried to blitz then shows that it’s not even close to what you’re describing.
Ukraine is holding their current territory pretty easily and gaining the upper hand very clearly.
No, just as it would be unable to resist NATO in being turned into a far-right paramilitary-led banana republic if Russia were to suddenly withdraw without any decrease in NATO involvement.
But the beauty of the neat little trick above is that if the working classes of both sides correctly oppose their respective ruling classes’ interests, we can end up with a scenario where both sides lose - objectively the best outcome for the Ukrainian people, as well as everyone else.
The Russian anti-war activists are clearly holding up their end of the bargain. Why are you not holding up yours?
The Russian anti-war activists are clearly holding up their end of the bargain. Why are you not holding up yours?
Ah! To be young and naive enough to believe that the anti-war activists in Russia have any leverage. They will all end up in Siberia or jumping out of a window.
Any regime change in Russia will come from the oligarchs, and the Russian working class will still be in a bad position (if not worse).
Adding “jailing pacifists for speaking out” to the things dronies openly support, along with forcing others to fight when they’re not willing to, poisoning civilians with generations of birth defects, and giving cluster bombs to Nazis.
The moral high ground, ladies and gents
No, we want Ukraine to stop trying to ethnically cleanse the Donbas and give the people there self determination. And we want the Ukrainian government to stop forcibly conscripting people to go die needlessly on the front in a clearly losing war. We want NATO to stop enabling all of that (it literally wouldn’t be happening if they weren’t demanding that it continue). That’s what it is to be a peace activist. And I’m fairly sure I can speak for all of us, we are not pacifists, lol. But we are advocates for peace and the end to the horrible and needless loss of life.
Nice try to completely twist reality, and completely misrepresent us, as you war mongering dronies always do.
Edit: We actually give a shit about all the Ukrainian people being thrown into a fucking meat grinder. We care about their lives. The people who just say “more weapons to Ukraine!” do not give a shit about the lives of the people there. They’re happy to just let the war keep dragging on until the last capable Ukrainian is dead. An example of how WE feel about the tragedy of the situation: https://hexbear.net/post/503747 (hexbear link to a lemmygrad news post)
Edit: We actually give a shit about all the Ukrainian people being thrown into a fucking meat grinder. We care about their lives. The people who just say “more weapons to Ukraine!” do not give a shit about the lives of the people there. They’re happy to just let the war keep dragging on until the last capable Ukrainian is dead. An example of how WE feel about the tragedy of the situation: https://hexbear.net/post/503747 (hexbear link to a lemmygrad news post)
So be fucking outraged then that Russia started, and is continuing this war. They’re the ones killing Ukrainians in their homeland.
A comment from that link:
Omg, it’s a full on genocide of Ukrainian people. Just damm the Western libs… Fuck this planet.
Russia is committing genocide. They’ve been raping and killing civilians since the start, this is where your anger and energy needs to be. Imagine being outraged at the nation defending itself from genocide, and those countries that are sending the tools that they’re being asked for to help defend themselves.
You realize more fighting and more weapons doesn’t magicly win territory? It’s war, to continue fighting means killing more people and destroying more lives. The fighting needs to stop as soon as possible, one way or another or the whole country will end up like Bakmuht.
So your answer is to let an aggressor nation just happily steamroll through any country it pleases? Because down to this logic, any nation that decides to defend their homeland just cause needless bloodshed. No fighting = no deaths, but the aggressor can literally just waltz in and take whatever it wants.
The fighting needs to stop as soon as possible
Agreed. Every effort needs to make sure Russia leaves Ukraine ASAP. Ideally without any more deaths. But unfortunately as long as Russia continues this pointless act of imperialism, then the death toll will rise.
So your answer is to keep the meatgrinder running for as long as possible? Sure, countless Ukrainians and Russians are dying, but at least the lines on the map don’t change.
If Ukraine wants to remain a sovereign nation and retain its land, then what alternative does it have? I don’t think any nation in their right mind would happily let an invader just attack without putting up a defence.
Russia themselves threw millions of men into the meat grinder to defeat the Nazis and so did the allies. So did the north Vietnamese against the US. It’s tragic, but it’s it’s unfortunately the reality when there’s bad actors that invade other nations.
The joke is that what you want has been done already when Russia invaded the Krim.
How dumb do you have to be to think that Russia would not do the same shit again soon if Ukraine decides to do nothing?
Gaddafi’s troops are committing rape to children en masse, they have issued viagra to mass rape people since the start. this is where your anger and energy need to be. Imagine being outraged at the nation defending itself from mass rape, and those countries that are sending the tools that they’re being asked for to help defend themselves.
Here is the UN mandate to intervene in Lybia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1973 a resolution drafted by Tunisia and supported by the African Union, the Arab League and allowed by all of the UNSC.
Where is russia’s UN mandate to annex Crimea and to later bomb Kiev? Did they even try?
Whataboutism and false equivalency. Nice.
Thought terminating cliches. Nice.
Logical fallacies. Try having logical thoughts and people won’t throw these at you :)
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I code in c# mainly.
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I’m more interested in her secret to staying young
This news story is over a year ago, and the US locks up people all the time for political reasons
Whataboutism
Can you provide proof that people in today’s US have been given jail time for posting online government criticism?
Here’s a guy who got locked up for saying that if they try a local Jan 6th in Florida people need to be armed to resist. Dude got sentenced to 4 years of prison for posting about defending the country from Jan 6thers.
Wow that’s disgusting
Does Manning count?
Not really, the one is a whistleblower leaking highly confidential information and the other is a simple person speaking out against their government’s actions.
I’m not by any means saying that Manning didn’t do the right thing and deserves jail, just that it isn’t the same case.
https://fortune.com/2023/04/18/russia-propaganda-elections-4-americans-charged-black-empowerment/
https://peoplesdispatch.org/2023/04/20/black-liberation-organizers-indicted-for-opposing-war/
All the same story, different sources (or bias). not including the NAFO dog community sabatoging that eco socialist (Dimitri Lascaris) trying to make peace talks in canada
edited for more clairty & details and spell check.
one is a whistleblower leaking highly confidential information and the other is a simple person speaking out against their government’s actions
This level of detail is not included in the linked article. The article says “she placed materials about Russia’s ongoing invasion of Ukraine on the Internet that contradicted official Defense Ministry statements.” From the article, we have no idea what those materials were. Maybe they included classified information, maybe they included actually false information, maybe they included incitements to violence, we don’t know.
Note also that the article is from Radio Free Europe, a U.S. propaganda outlet:
Radio Free Europe was created and grew in its early years through the efforts of the National Committee for a Free Europe (NCFE), an anti-communist CIA front organization that was formed by Allen Dulles in New York City in 1949. RFE/RL received funds covertly from the CIA until 1972. During RFE’s earliest years of existence, the CIA and U.S. Department of State issued broad policy directives, and a system evolved where broadcast policy was determined through negotiation between them and RFE staff.
I tried to look through a lot of cases. It seemed like most every case was leaking information, threats of actual violence, stolen valor, or other generally agreed upon crimes. There’s truth to the notion that a government is more likely to look for crimes if you’re a specific person, but I don’t know of anyone in the modern US who goes to jail for lying about things the army has done. I use the word “lying” because Russia courts make the claim that that’s what happened here.
Also, there are more recent cases of Russia imprisoning someone for essentially this same crime.
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How on Earth is the US green 😭
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That one guy who said he was gonna kill a sheriff in Minecraft
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Yeah i was just being pedantic lol
Internet posts?! This is why online discussions are ridiculously stupid. A classic argument over semantics about Internet posts, when so many people have been censored for speaking out against the government. Anybody that thinks the US is a bastion of freedom has bought into the propaganda. The idea that the US can critique anybody about this tickles me. Green my ass
How many years did donkey get? Did she at least get her swamp back?
