• Lemminary
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    3ā€¢1 year ago

    like I did a call to arms for people to stop being proud

    See, the irony is that I did no such thing and that youā€™re the one misconstruing my points. When what I did was criticize youā€“as in judgement. Hereā€™s what actually happened:

    I want to ā€œmake it an issueā€

    You literally are trying to make it an issue. Here are your words: ā€œItā€™s currently not an issue [ā€¦] But itā€™s still a sort of double standardā€ blah blah. That is literally you trying to find fault in something that is not problematic in any way. Your whole premise hinges on ā€œif society progresses enoughā€ like youā€™re trying to prevent a social disaster from happening in your mind. That is the pettiest battle to take on the strangest vanguard that Iā€™ve ever heard. Youā€™re pulling an issue out of thin air.

    I want to ā€œgrind my axeā€

    Thatā€™s exactly what youā€™re doing, though, and Iā€™m calling you out. Youā€™re being argumentative over something that does not need to be argued about and ultimately fuels disdain because of this strange need to want to have a straight pride. Instead, be thankful that you donā€™t need it to exist. If gay people could forego pride entirely in order to live in peace, we would in a heartbeat. Iā€™m still getting homophobic shit in a supposedly gay-friendly city.

    I think ā€œthis shit is trivial and annoyingā€

    My exact words were ā€œif you think this shit is trivial and annoyingā€. You omitted the most important word of this hypothetical condition. At no point does it make it fact that itā€™s what you think.

    I find weird that people take pride in stuff they didnā€™t choose to be

    And I find it weird that people try to shame me regularly for something that I didnā€™t choose to be. What am I supposed to be if not prideful and without shame of who I am? Pride is literally a valid antonym of shame. But let me know what your effective and concise alternative is to express that. Anything constructive that doesnā€™t sound ridiculous?

    You may think youā€™re smart by slapping destructive and inaccurate labels like ā€œlogical fallacyā€ on a device that my community has used to fight back to get us to where we are. But youā€™re saying this all the while using other idioms incorrectly and failing to identify intention. Get your basics right, man.

    eventually

    So letā€™s get there first, then.

    • @Syrc@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Okay, Iā€™ll admit I did not know the ā€œgrind your axeā€ idiom and assumed it meant something along the lines of ā€œsharpen your knivesā€, in the sense that I wanted an excuse to be angry (and metaphorically violent) at someone. I honestly still didnā€™t completely get what you meant because the first three definitions I found are all different from each other, but none is what I thought you meant so my bad.

      You literally are trying to make it an issue. Here are your words: ā€œItā€™s currently not an issue [ā€¦] But itā€™s still a sort of double standardā€ blah blah. That is literally you trying to find fault in something that is not problematic in any way. Your whole premise hinges on ā€œif society progresses enoughā€ like youā€™re trying to prevent a social disaster from happening in your mind. That is the pettiest battle to take on the strangest vanguard that Iā€™ve ever heard. Youā€™re pulling an issue out of thin air.

      You think itā€™s not problematic in any way. Tell me how it isnā€™t a double standard (by default a fallacy if we want both parties to be equal) then. And again, Iā€™m not trying to prevent anything, at one point I even said itā€™s currently not important and itā€™s not for our generation to care, but you wanted to keep discussing because even suggesting it might be a slight problem in the far future is unacceptable.

      Youā€™re being argumentative over something that does not need to be argued about and ultimately fuels disdain because of this strange need to want to have a straight pride.

      Itā€™s the opposite, actually. I said itā€™s weird to have pride for something like that, be it gay or straight. Theyā€™re both weird in my view and I donā€™t see why would I ever be proud about my sexual preferences.

      What am I supposed to be if not prideful and without shame of who I am? Pride is literally a valid antonym of shame. But let me know what your effective and concise alternative is to express that. Anything constructive that doesnā€™t sound ridiculous?

      Why is it so important to express it? And even if it was, why canā€™t you just be ā€œnot ashamedā€? Itā€™s not a dichotomy. There are plenty of things about myself Iā€™m not prideful nor shameful about, and my sexuality is one of them. You say ā€œstraight prideā€ doesnā€™t need to exist, but you donā€™t think that as a consequence they have to be ashamed about it, do you?

      You may think youā€™re smart by slapping destructive and inaccurate labels like ā€œlogical fallacyā€ on a device that my community has used to fight back to get us to where we are.

      The logical fallacy is in ā€œproud of being gayā€ and ā€œproud of being straightā€ meaning exactly the same thing but being viewed with diametrically opposite acceptations. I donā€™t think the entire LGBT rights movement is founded on that.

      So letā€™s get there first, then.

      Ok. Iā€™m waiting and doing my part in voting for progressive parties in my country. Am I not allowed to make conjectures on the internet that in no way harm the progress your community is trying to achieve, in the meantime?

      • Lemminary
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        2ā€¢1 year ago

        by default a fallacy if we want both parties to be equal

        But theyā€™re not equal and a good part of the world still doesnā€™t want them to be equal. And that you have realize that you can most definitely have pride in being gay and also as a means to fight back homophobia that has absolutely nothing to do with ā€œstraight prideā€ because straights are not oppressed. You canā€™t present your argument in a sterile environment when this word has history and has a live movement behind it. Itā€™s definitely not just being proud alone of which I have many reasons to be, but itā€™s also about fighting back.

        even suggesting it might be a slight problem in the far future is unacceptable

        Yeah, and itā€™s a wedge for a supposed future problem that you have imagined and are trying to create discussion about right now. Given the state of things with white supremacy and bigots on the rise, do you really think that kind of discussion is going to be welcomed? Like I said, if youā€™re not LGBT youā€™re not a targeted community for that specifically. I got my livelihood on the line and my mental health and I donā€™t intend to give bigots one inch. Bad rhetoric breeds bad rhetoric so donā€™t expect me to be tolerant of even breaching the subject thatā€™s not constructive in any way but comes across as blindly privileged if not a bit clueless.

        I said itā€™s weird to have pride for something like that, be it gay or straight.

        And thatā€™s fine if you think that, but like I said, what am I to do about the imposed sense of shame that Iā€™ve been hearing about since I was 5? Just stop calling it pride because some tone-deaf folk or someone with an agenda wants their black & white parade? Or because someone canā€™t see the bigger picture? In a sense, Iā€™m being asked to be disarmed of one of the most politically powerful and humanitarian movements in history for the sake of argument. I give up a powerful device that derives a sense of self-worth and community for nothing in return. Itā€™s ridiculous.

        Itā€™s important to express it because representation & visibility in the media matters, and that yearly reminder that weā€™re still here and that we have numbers also matters. Itā€™s not just for the bigots but for ourselves growing up as well. Iā€™m not sure you realize the impact that Pride has on teens and young adults for their self esteem, what a lighthouse signal it is to let our guards down, and what a difference it makes to see some hope that thereā€™s an active effort to change the world for the better. I grew up with that and I wish more people did because I still see so much self hate of which I have many stories. Especially when we get so many horrible news from all over the world about queer people being murdered and get our rights taken away. I mean, just last week one of our openly queer magistrates from a state over and his partner were stabbed to death in their own residence after receiving death threats. And this is after another LGBT+ activist was murdered in cold blood back in July.

        You say ā€œstraight prideā€ doesnā€™t need to exist, but you donā€™t think that as a consequence they have to be ashamed about it, do you?

        I said no such thing. I said that gay pride exists because thereā€™s a need for it to exist, and that need isnā€™t going away anytime soon. Like I said, be glad that you donā€™t feel the need to derive a sense of self-worth or community for your basic human rights. I canā€™t even describe nicely what it looks like for me to see you criticize from a comfortable chair in a sterile environment.

        Am I not allowed to make conjectures on the internet that in no way harm the progress your community is trying to achieve, in the meantime?

        Youā€™re allowed to, just like everyone is allowed their misinformed opinions, but that doesnā€™t save anyone from the push back. My point is that itā€™s a frivolous discussion marred in the oversimplification of the term based on a misconception that I hear too often. Sorry but this discussion is not new and itā€™s often attached to some bigoted ideas regardless of your good intentions, and thatā€™s my real issue. I get your point, that it sounds absurd, but context is everything.

        • @Syrc@lemmy.world
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          1ā€¢1 year ago

          And thatā€™s fine if you think that, but like I said, what am I to do about the imposed sense of shame that Iā€™ve been hearing about since I was 5? Just stop calling it pride because some tone-deaf folk or someone with an agenda wants their black & white parade? Or because someone canā€™t see the bigger picture? In a sense, Iā€™m being asked to be disarmed of one of the most politically powerful and humanitarian movements in history for the sake of argument.

          Iā€™m not asking for you (or anyone) to do anything, Iā€™m just discussing on the internet. If you think adapting the current situation to avoid the fallacy is not worth it, by all means do what you feel is better. Being straight and European Iā€™m clearly less informed on the subject than you, so it makes sense that you would want to stick to your beliefs, Iā€™m not surprised and Iā€™m not bitter or anything about it. As we already said, the world has far worse problems than a speech fallacy skewed in favor of a heavily oppressed community.

          Itā€™s important to express it because representation & visibility in the media matters, and that yearly reminder that weā€™re still here and that we have numbers also matters. Itā€™s not just for the bigots but for ourselves growing up as well. Iā€™m not sure you realize the impact that Pride has on teens and young adults for their self esteem, what a lighthouse signal it is to let our guards down, and what a difference it makes to see some hope that thereā€™s an active effort to change the world for the better. I grew up with that and I wish more people did because I still see so much self hate of which I have many stories.

          Maybe I wasnā€™t clear enough about it earlier, but I have absolutely nothing against ā€œPrideā€ as an event. Iā€™ve never been to one but from stories, pictures and videos Iā€™ve seen it seems like sort of a huge carnival spreading messages of acceptance and peace, thatā€™s wonderful and I love that itā€™s happening. I was talking more about the idiom (my original comment wasnā€™t even about sexuality), and people saying theyā€™re ā€œproud of being (anything they were born as)ā€. I think I even discussed with another commenter how the event being called ā€œGay Prideā€ is something thatā€™s set in stone and part of universal speech, so at this point it wouldnā€™t be worth it to rename it just to make it ā€œslightly less controversialā€ (like the whole debate about ā€œblacklistā€ or ā€œmale and femaleā€ adapters).

          I said no such thing. I said that gay pride exists because thereā€™s a need for it to exist, and that need isnā€™t going away anytime soon. Like I said, be glad that you donā€™t feel the need to derive a sense of self-worth or community for your basic human rights.

          I know, it was just an example of how someone can feel neither shameful nor prideful about something.

          Youā€™re allowed to, just like everyone is allowed their misinformed opinions, but that doesnā€™t save anyone from the push back. My point is that itā€™s a frivolous discussion marred in the oversimplification of the term based on a misconception that I hear too often. Sorry but this discussion is not new and itā€™s often attached to some bigoted ideas regardless of your good intentions, and thatā€™s my real issue. I get your point, that it sounds absurd, but context is everything.

          Sure, I never denied it being frivolous, and I tried discussing it on a place like Lemmy especially because if I did it in a less left-leaning community the comments wouldā€™ve just been filled with bigots turning my argument into an excuse to insult. In a place like this where mostly everyone knows thereā€™s no gay lobby trying to control the world or anything, I feel like you can discuss these things in a more relaxed and detached way.