like I did a call to arms for people to stop being proud
See, the irony is that I did no such thing and that youāre the one misconstruing my points. When what I did was criticize youāas in judgement. Hereās what actually happened:
I want to āmake it an issueā
You literally are trying to make it an issue. Here are your words: āItās currently not an issue [ā¦] But itās still a sort of double standardā blah blah. That is literally you trying to find fault in something that is not problematic in any way. Your whole premise hinges on āif society progresses enoughā like youāre trying to prevent a social disaster from happening in your mind. That is the pettiest battle to take on the strangest vanguard that Iāve ever heard. Youāre pulling an issue out of thin air.
I want to āgrind my axeā
Thatās exactly what youāre doing, though, and Iām calling you out. Youāre being argumentative over something that does not need to be argued about and ultimately fuels disdain because of this strange need to want to have a straight pride. Instead, be thankful that you donāt need it to exist. If gay people could forego pride entirely in order to live in peace, we would in a heartbeat. Iām still getting homophobic shit in a supposedly gay-friendly city.
I think āthis shit is trivial and annoyingā
My exact words were āif you think this shit is trivial and annoyingā. You omitted the most important word of this hypothetical condition. At no point does it make it fact that itās what you think.
I find weird that people take pride in stuff they didnāt choose to be
And I find it weird that people try to shame me regularly for something that I didnāt choose to be. What am I supposed to be if not prideful and without shame of who I am? Pride is literally a valid antonym of shame. But let me know what your effective and concise alternative is to express that. Anything constructive that doesnāt sound ridiculous?
You may think youāre smart by slapping destructive and inaccurate labels like ālogical fallacyā on a device that my community has used to fight back to get us to where we are. But youāre saying this all the while using other idioms incorrectly and failing to identify intention. Get your basics right, man.
Okay, Iāll admit I did not know the āgrind your axeā idiom and assumed it meant something along the lines of āsharpen your knivesā, in the sense that I wanted an excuse to be angry (and metaphorically violent) at someone. I honestly still didnāt completely get what you meant because the first three definitions I found are all different from each other, but none is what I thought you meant so my bad.
You literally are trying to make it an issue. Here are your words: āItās currently not an issue [ā¦] But itās still a sort of double standardā blah blah. That is literally you trying to find fault in something that is not problematic in any way. Your whole premise hinges on āif society progresses enoughā like youāre trying to prevent a social disaster from happening in your mind. That is the pettiest battle to take on the strangest vanguard that Iāve ever heard. Youāre pulling an issue out of thin air.
You think itās not problematic in any way. Tell me how it isnāt a double standard (by default a fallacy if we want both parties to be equal) then. And again, Iām not trying to prevent anything, at one point I even said itās currently not important and itās not for our generation to care, but you wanted to keep discussing because even suggesting it might be a slight problem in the far future is unacceptable.
Youāre being argumentative over something that does not need to be argued about and ultimately fuels disdain because of this strange need to want to have a straight pride.
Itās the opposite, actually. I said itās weird to have pride for something like that, be it gay or straight. Theyāre both weird in my view and I donāt see why would I ever be proud about my sexual preferences.
What am I supposed to be if not prideful and without shame of who I am? Pride is literally a valid antonym of shame. But let me know what your effective and concise alternative is to express that. Anything constructive that doesnāt sound ridiculous?
Why is it so important to express it? And even if it was, why canāt you just be ānot ashamedā? Itās not a dichotomy. There are plenty of things about myself Iām not prideful nor shameful about, and my sexuality is one of them. You say āstraight prideā doesnāt need to exist, but you donāt think that as a consequence they have to be ashamed about it, do you?
You may think youāre smart by slapping destructive and inaccurate labels like ālogical fallacyā on a device that my community has used to fight back to get us to where we are.
The logical fallacy is in āproud of being gayā and āproud of being straightā meaning exactly the same thing but being viewed with diametrically opposite acceptations. I donāt think the entire LGBT rights movement is founded on that.
So letās get there first, then.
Ok. Iām waiting and doing my part in voting for progressive parties in my country. Am I not allowed to make conjectures on the internet that in no way harm the progress your community is trying to achieve, in the meantime?
by default a fallacy if we want both parties to be equal
But theyāre not equal and a good part of the world still doesnāt want them to be equal. And that you have realize that you can most definitely have pride in being gay and also as a means to fight back homophobia that has absolutely nothing to do with āstraight prideā because straights are not oppressed. You canāt present your argument in a sterile environment when this word has history and has a live movement behind it. Itās definitely not just being proud alone of which I have many reasons to be, but itās also about fighting back.
even suggesting it might be a slight problem in the far future is unacceptable
Yeah, and itās a wedge for a supposed future problem that you have imagined and are trying to create discussion about right now. Given the state of things with white supremacy and bigots on the rise, do you really think that kind of discussion is going to be welcomed? Like I said, if youāre not LGBT youāre not a targeted community for that specifically. I got my livelihood on the line and my mental health and I donāt intend to give bigots one inch. Bad rhetoric breeds bad rhetoric so donāt expect me to be tolerant of even breaching the subject thatās not constructive in any way but comes across as blindly privileged if not a bit clueless.
I said itās weird to have pride for something like that, be it gay or straight.
And thatās fine if you think that, but like I said, what am I to do about the imposed sense of shame that Iāve been hearing about since I was 5? Just stop calling it pride because some tone-deaf folk or someone with an agenda wants their black & white parade? Or because someone canāt see the bigger picture? In a sense, Iām being asked to be disarmed of one of the most politically powerful and humanitarian movements in history for the sake of argument. I give up a powerful device that derives a sense of self-worth and community for nothing in return. Itās ridiculous.
Itās important to express it because representation & visibility in the media matters, and that yearly reminder that weāre still here and that we have numbers also matters. Itās not just for the bigots but for ourselves growing up as well. Iām not sure you realize the impact that Pride has on teens and young adults for their self esteem, what a lighthouse signal it is to let our guards down, and what a difference it makes to see some hope that thereās an active effort to change the world for the better. I grew up with that and I wish more people did because I still see so much self hate of which I have many stories. Especially when we get so many horrible news from all over the world about queer people being murdered and get our rights taken away. I mean, just last week one of our openly queer magistrates from a state over and his partner were stabbed to death in their own residence after receiving death threats. And this is after another LGBT+ activist was murdered in cold blood back in July.
You say āstraight prideā doesnāt need to exist, but you donāt think that as a consequence they have to be ashamed about it, do you?
I said no such thing. I said that gay pride exists because thereās a need for it to exist, and that need isnāt going away anytime soon. Like I said, be glad that you donāt feel the need to derive a sense of self-worth or community for your basic human rights. I canāt even describe nicely what it looks like for me to see you criticize from a comfortable chair in a sterile environment.
Am I not allowed to make conjectures on the internet that in no way harm the progress your community is trying to achieve, in the meantime?
Youāre allowed to, just like everyone is allowed their misinformed opinions, but that doesnāt save anyone from the push back. My point is that itās a frivolous discussion marred in the oversimplification of the term based on a misconception that I hear too often. Sorry but this discussion is not new and itās often attached to some bigoted ideas regardless of your good intentions, and thatās my real issue. I get your point, that it sounds absurd, but context is everything.
And thatās fine if you think that, but like I said, what am I to do about the imposed sense of shame that Iāve been hearing about since I was 5? Just stop calling it pride because some tone-deaf folk or someone with an agenda wants their black & white parade? Or because someone canāt see the bigger picture? In a sense, Iām being asked to be disarmed of one of the most politically powerful and humanitarian movements in history for the sake of argument.
Iām not asking for you (or anyone) to do anything, Iām just discussing on the internet. If you think adapting the current situation to avoid the fallacy is not worth it, by all means do what you feel is better. Being straight and European Iām clearly less informed on the subject than you, so it makes sense that you would want to stick to your beliefs, Iām not surprised and Iām not bitter or anything about it. As we already said, the world has far worse problems than a speech fallacy skewed in favor of a heavily oppressed community.
Itās important to express it because representation & visibility in the media matters, and that yearly reminder that weāre still here and that we have numbers also matters. Itās not just for the bigots but for ourselves growing up as well. Iām not sure you realize the impact that Pride has on teens and young adults for their self esteem, what a lighthouse signal it is to let our guards down, and what a difference it makes to see some hope that thereās an active effort to change the world for the better. I grew up with that and I wish more people did because I still see so much self hate of which I have many stories.
Maybe I wasnāt clear enough about it earlier, but I have absolutely nothing against āPrideā as an event. Iāve never been to one but from stories, pictures and videos Iāve seen it seems like sort of a huge carnival spreading messages of acceptance and peace, thatās wonderful and I love that itās happening. I was talking more about the idiom (my original comment wasnāt even about sexuality), and people saying theyāre āproud of being (anything they were born as)ā. I think I even discussed with another commenter how the event being called āGay Prideā is something thatās set in stone and part of universal speech, so at this point it wouldnāt be worth it to rename it just to make it āslightly less controversialā (like the whole debate about āblacklistā or āmale and femaleā adapters).
I said no such thing. I said that gay pride exists because thereās a need for it to exist, and that need isnāt going away anytime soon. Like I said, be glad that you donāt feel the need to derive a sense of self-worth or community for your basic human rights.
I know, it was just an example of how someone can feel neither shameful nor prideful about something.
Youāre allowed to, just like everyone is allowed their misinformed opinions, but that doesnāt save anyone from the push back. My point is that itās a frivolous discussion marred in the oversimplification of the term based on a misconception that I hear too often. Sorry but this discussion is not new and itās often attached to some bigoted ideas regardless of your good intentions, and thatās my real issue. I get your point, that it sounds absurd, but context is everything.
Sure, I never denied it being frivolous, and I tried discussing it on a place like Lemmy especially because if I did it in a less left-leaning community the comments wouldāve just been filled with bigots turning my argument into an excuse to insult. In a place like this where mostly everyone knows thereās no gay lobby trying to control the world or anything, I feel like you can discuss these things in a more relaxed and detached way.
See, the irony is that I did no such thing and that youāre the one misconstruing my points. When what I did was criticize youāas in judgement. Hereās what actually happened:
You literally are trying to make it an issue. Here are your words: āItās currently not an issue [ā¦] But itās still a sort of double standardā blah blah. That is literally you trying to find fault in something that is not problematic in any way. Your whole premise hinges on āif society progresses enoughā like youāre trying to prevent a social disaster from happening in your mind. That is the pettiest battle to take on the strangest vanguard that Iāve ever heard. Youāre pulling an issue out of thin air.
Thatās exactly what youāre doing, though, and Iām calling you out. Youāre being argumentative over something that does not need to be argued about and ultimately fuels disdain because of this strange need to want to have a straight pride. Instead, be thankful that you donāt need it to exist. If gay people could forego pride entirely in order to live in peace, we would in a heartbeat. Iām still getting homophobic shit in a supposedly gay-friendly city.
My exact words were āif you think this shit is trivial and annoyingā. You omitted the most important word of this hypothetical condition. At no point does it make it fact that itās what you think.
And I find it weird that people try to shame me regularly for something that I didnāt choose to be. What am I supposed to be if not prideful and without shame of who I am? Pride is literally a valid antonym of shame. But let me know what your effective and concise alternative is to express that. Anything constructive that doesnāt sound ridiculous?
You may think youāre smart by slapping destructive and inaccurate labels like ālogical fallacyā on a device that my community has used to fight back to get us to where we are. But youāre saying this all the while using other idioms incorrectly and failing to identify intention. Get your basics right, man.
So letās get there first, then.
Okay, Iāll admit I did not know the āgrind your axeā idiom and assumed it meant something along the lines of āsharpen your knivesā, in the sense that I wanted an excuse to be angry (and metaphorically violent) at someone. I honestly still didnāt completely get what you meant because the first three definitions I found are all different from each other, but none is what I thought you meant so my bad.
You think itās not problematic in any way. Tell me how it isnāt a double standard (by default a fallacy if we want both parties to be equal) then. And again, Iām not trying to prevent anything, at one point I even said itās currently not important and itās not for our generation to care, but you wanted to keep discussing because even suggesting it might be a slight problem in the far future is unacceptable.
Itās the opposite, actually. I said itās weird to have pride for something like that, be it gay or straight. Theyāre both weird in my view and I donāt see why would I ever be proud about my sexual preferences.
Why is it so important to express it? And even if it was, why canāt you just be ānot ashamedā? Itās not a dichotomy. There are plenty of things about myself Iām not prideful nor shameful about, and my sexuality is one of them. You say āstraight prideā doesnāt need to exist, but you donāt think that as a consequence they have to be ashamed about it, do you?
The logical fallacy is in āproud of being gayā and āproud of being straightā meaning exactly the same thing but being viewed with diametrically opposite acceptations. I donāt think the entire LGBT rights movement is founded on that.
Ok. Iām waiting and doing my part in voting for progressive parties in my country. Am I not allowed to make conjectures on the internet that in no way harm the progress your community is trying to achieve, in the meantime?
But theyāre not equal and a good part of the world still doesnāt want them to be equal. And that you have realize that you can most definitely have pride in being gay and also as a means to fight back homophobia that has absolutely nothing to do with āstraight prideā because straights are not oppressed. You canāt present your argument in a sterile environment when this word has history and has a live movement behind it. Itās definitely not just being proud alone of which I have many reasons to be, but itās also about fighting back.
Yeah, and itās a wedge for a supposed future problem that you have imagined and are trying to create discussion about right now. Given the state of things with white supremacy and bigots on the rise, do you really think that kind of discussion is going to be welcomed? Like I said, if youāre not LGBT youāre not a targeted community for that specifically. I got my livelihood on the line and my mental health and I donāt intend to give bigots one inch. Bad rhetoric breeds bad rhetoric so donāt expect me to be tolerant of even breaching the subject thatās not constructive in any way but comes across as blindly privileged if not a bit clueless.
And thatās fine if you think that, but like I said, what am I to do about the imposed sense of shame that Iāve been hearing about since I was 5? Just stop calling it pride because some tone-deaf folk or someone with an agenda wants their black & white parade? Or because someone canāt see the bigger picture? In a sense, Iām being asked to be disarmed of one of the most politically powerful and humanitarian movements in history for the sake of argument. I give up a powerful device that derives a sense of self-worth and community for nothing in return. Itās ridiculous.
Itās important to express it because representation & visibility in the media matters, and that yearly reminder that weāre still here and that we have numbers also matters. Itās not just for the bigots but for ourselves growing up as well. Iām not sure you realize the impact that Pride has on teens and young adults for their self esteem, what a lighthouse signal it is to let our guards down, and what a difference it makes to see some hope that thereās an active effort to change the world for the better. I grew up with that and I wish more people did because I still see so much self hate of which I have many stories. Especially when we get so many horrible news from all over the world about queer people being murdered and get our rights taken away. I mean, just last week one of our openly queer magistrates from a state over and his partner were stabbed to death in their own residence after receiving death threats. And this is after another LGBT+ activist was murdered in cold blood back in July.
I said no such thing. I said that gay pride exists because thereās a need for it to exist, and that need isnāt going away anytime soon. Like I said, be glad that you donāt feel the need to derive a sense of self-worth or community for your basic human rights. I canāt even describe nicely what it looks like for me to see you criticize from a comfortable chair in a sterile environment.
Youāre allowed to, just like everyone is allowed their misinformed opinions, but that doesnāt save anyone from the push back. My point is that itās a frivolous discussion marred in the oversimplification of the term based on a misconception that I hear too often. Sorry but this discussion is not new and itās often attached to some bigoted ideas regardless of your good intentions, and thatās my real issue. I get your point, that it sounds absurd, but context is everything.
Iām not asking for you (or anyone) to do anything, Iām just discussing on the internet. If you think adapting the current situation to avoid the fallacy is not worth it, by all means do what you feel is better. Being straight and European Iām clearly less informed on the subject than you, so it makes sense that you would want to stick to your beliefs, Iām not surprised and Iām not bitter or anything about it. As we already said, the world has far worse problems than a speech fallacy skewed in favor of a heavily oppressed community.
Maybe I wasnāt clear enough about it earlier, but I have absolutely nothing against āPrideā as an event. Iāve never been to one but from stories, pictures and videos Iāve seen it seems like sort of a huge carnival spreading messages of acceptance and peace, thatās wonderful and I love that itās happening. I was talking more about the idiom (my original comment wasnāt even about sexuality), and people saying theyāre āproud of being (anything they were born as)ā. I think I even discussed with another commenter how the event being called āGay Prideā is something thatās set in stone and part of universal speech, so at this point it wouldnāt be worth it to rename it just to make it āslightly less controversialā (like the whole debate about āblacklistā or āmale and femaleā adapters).
I know, it was just an example of how someone can feel neither shameful nor prideful about something.
Sure, I never denied it being frivolous, and I tried discussing it on a place like Lemmy especially because if I did it in a less left-leaning community the comments wouldāve just been filled with bigots turning my argument into an excuse to insult. In a place like this where mostly everyone knows thereās no gay lobby trying to control the world or anything, I feel like you can discuss these things in a more relaxed and detached way.