His actual response was just as bad

No idea of what’s been going on in Canada. POW camps don’t really count. Nor any camps where the goal is not the removal of an ethnicity or nationality from from a region. The question about Israel’s democracy is an interesting one that I need to ponded more!

So your honor, my defense is an appeal to ignorance with a healthy side of “Nu-uh”.

Also, the US is totally not a democratic government, but Israel…

Because that is the subject we are talking about. We are talking about to what extent tankies are similar to fascists.

And my rebuttal proves that those qualities are not really unique to fascism nor “tankies” and are therefore redundant. You could have just as easily said governments do governmental things and would have made just as valid as a point.

Temporarily, not. But anything that forces people to have to lose their national or thnic identity is genocide. We are not talking about any temporary internment camps here. (I’m not sure if temporary internment camps based on ethnicity have ever even existed…)

And what proof is there that they are loosing their ethnic or national identity?

Secondly even the most inflammatory citations about the interment camps do not claim they are indefinite, mostly claiming that they are held for 10 months to two years.

Lastly, interning Japanese Americans during ww2 is an example of temporary internment camps based on ethnicity.

If they do not support using a country’s military against its own population nor are fascists, how are they relevant to this discussion that is intentionally limited to those two groups?

I provided several examples of democratic nations using their military against their own citizens. I have also already explained the reason it was relevant was because it disproves your claim.

Uh… Read the news maybe? WTF kind of question is this? How is it a democratic country?

Lol, do you know how a democratic nation is defined? Any country that derives it’s authority through elected representatives is a democratic nation. Just because those democratically elected officials are conducting themselves in a way that you or I do not agree with does not mean it’s not a democracy.

Democracy does not mean “only does good” it’s an organizational hierarchy that reflects the political majority.

No idea of what’s been going on in Canada.

Ahh, so ignorance is your defense…great.

POW camps don’t really count. Nor any camps where the goal is not the removal of an ethnicity or nationality from from a region.

Wut? You do know that one of the main reasons for Nazi concentration camps were for pows…

Is your claim that democratic countries are morally just in any action so long as they aren’t utilized solely for ethnic cleansing? Also… That would preclude the Uyghur internment camps as they are not being removed from China or Xijiang.

Do you really want to defend holding any percentage of people in an internment camp based on their ethnicity?

Did I say I was defending that… Or did I just say it wasn’t considered a genocide? Pretty sure I started the argument by saying i didn’t agree with all CCP policy, and that the treatment of the Uyghur people would be systemic ethnic prejudice, which is self evidently bad.

Again, my point isn’t to nullify all criticism, just to point out that there seems to be a double standard when people speak about the same crimes carried by both democratic and socialist governments.

my point was calling you stupid and you agreed with me

State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China | Colum Lynch, Foreign Policy. (2021)

The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, “The review did not substantiate the allegations.” (See: World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China)

Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter (A/HRC/41/G/17) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang.

The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States in 2019 which:

20. Welcomes the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat’s delegation upon invitation from the People’s Republic of China; commends the efforts of the People’s Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and looks forward to further cooperation between the OIC and the People’s Republic of China.

Books, Articles, or Essays:

• Egyptian media delegates provide a detailed insight of the situation in Xinjiang | (2019)
• The Xinjiang Atrocity Propaganda Blitz | Nia Frome (2021)
• Xinjiang: A Report and Resource Compilation | Qiao Collective (2021)
• Xinjiang: Understanding Complexity, Building Peace | International Diplomatic Institute (2021)
• Fight against Terrorism and Extremism in Xinjiang: Truth and Facts | Information Office of the People’s Government of Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region (2022)

This is like red scare orientalist bingo. You have

-Public events are actually a propagands show for whitey

-Showing face

-Everyone there is only pretending to be happy because Something Bad will happen to their families (how many generations?) if they don’t.

At what point does believing all of these conventient copes to get around having to engage with the concept of an actually popular government start to take on the qualities of a cult’s belief structure?

Man i fucking hate The Interview

Yes, because China is well known to assasinate diplomats and family members of political opponents in dozens of countries around the world…

I didn’t post a link to any videos dumbass, my source is the verifiable fact that the majority of muslim nations on earth investigated in person and are calling bullshit on us. They have far more credibility than the US and our lackeys and our media, there is no actual evidence to contradict their findings, it’s the same sort of atrocity propaganda we used to justify invading Iraq & Afghanistan.

without concentration camps!

Wrong as shit, how are you so ignorant about your own history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Karelian_concentration_camps

That’s still not as fast of a development, and the conditions aren’t really comparable. China used to be among the poorest countries in the world.

And while their government has not always been ideal, it was undoubtably the best option on the table historically. The corrupt Nationalists didn’t do shit for the people (and pocketed foreign aid). Before that, with no central authority, was the warlord period. Before that was the backwards Qing dynasty. In all the thousands of years of Chinese history, nobody really did anything for the rural people until the communists.

Yet this is very clearly not something that all commodities have in common

This is not clear at all. Elaborate, please.

and that a thing’s status as a commodity and its ability to be exchanged for other commodities has nothing to do with its being a product of labor

Why not? Are you saying that the utility of a commodity to someone does not change whether or not it was made with labor? This doesn’t really matter, though, the point of the Law of Value is that commodities are socially produced, and socially distributed, which normalizes their price around their values. Arguments like the “mud pie” don’t apply, because mud pies are neither useful nor difficult to make.

The only way Marx’s argument can be accepted is if you start with the presupposition that commodities are valued by the labor required to produce them.

Incorrect, the exchange-value that price fluctuates around is representative of the value in a commodity. Another way to look at it is that the value of a commodity is the sum of its inputs, which can be reduced to labor and natural resources.

How this happens that commodities are exchanged at their “value” is a complete mystery by the way, since Marx says it has nothing to do with the conscious considerations of either the buyer or the seller.

Marx is correct, though this is no mystery. Commodities are social products, and are socially exchanged. What’s universal to goods bought and sold is that they require natural resources and human labor to create them, thus capitalism in being a social process acts as a price-finder for commodities, all based on inputs and outputs.

The dictatorship of the proletariat is a democratic state for the proletariat, and dictatorship against capitalists, fascists, landlords, and slavers. It’s the socialist equivalent to liberal democracy, which de facto is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.

All states are class dictatorships, this means democracy for the ruling class and its absolute rule over the rest.

Also, not sure why you brought up Capital if you’re talking about the DotP, that’s not really in Capital. Capital is a critique of bourgeois Political Economy.

the CCP is who decides about everything that happens in the country

The CPC has 100 million members, it’s their job to represent the people. This is like saying “the government decides what happens”

Any clock in the Uyghur areas is showing the local time, not Beijing time

I spent 3 months in Xinjiang, I didn’t notice this, but can’t remember the last time I looked at a clock that wasn’t on a phone.

Any religion is a problem

You’re recycling anti-soviet propaganda. China isn’t atheist. For China, they officially support religion, but in practice recognize religious organizations as potential problems due to history, from the boxer rebellion to Fulong gong to ETIM terrorist attacks. They reconcile this by providing funding and official support to religious institutions, but exert pressure (I’m unclear how exactly) to promote less radical factions and don’t provide as many special privileges in areas where there’s risks of extremism, for example there’s religious schools in Xi’an, but not Urumqi. Personally I think the situation with private schools and hukou is a mess that needs to be addressed in a way that doesn’t ration education by income and zip code, but as an outsider, I don’t have the nuanced understanding how to do this in a way that doesn’t impinge on the rights of minorities and helps to preserve their culture, but the Chinese I’ve asked about this seem less concerned about losing aspects of their own unique cultures than having a common language and understanding, which IMO is a god-awful take, discarding the work of millennia of human development.

nation as religious as Uyghurs

How do you measure how religious a group of people are?

What are you referencing when you say current Russian colonies? Pretty much all Russian colonization happened in the 16th century in Siberia and central asia under imperial Russia. The only colonization other than that was in Alaska and in parts of northern California in the 18th century, while still under the imperial regime.

Modern Russia had no colonies to inherit, it has no colonies. The Soviet Union liberated the Tsar’s colonies and thus modern Russia had none to inherit.

“Plugging your ears and running away is the only way to deal with people who have unanswerable critiques of my way of thinking. For your own safety, you must terminate critical thought immediately.”

Dude you would have to waterboard me for six business days to get me to admit to that kind of ideological weakness

What a weird statement. I replied to you saying you reflexively ignored information purely because the person posting it has a Lemmy.ml account, this is just blatant anti intellectualism and forcing yourself into an echo chamber. Not sure what you mean by “authoritarian, genocide-denial sophistry” either.

Edit for your edit:

This is just mental gymnastics to justify your own echo-chamber.

What is “unapologetic”? Like pointing out that the US is constantly is launching wars of aggression, while China hasn’t been in a war since the 70s?

There’s a big false equivalence that liberals want to make between the US and other large powers, that if ores the scope and frequency of US lawlessness.

Imperialism is a stage of monopoly capitalism where domestic markets are saturated, and thus you must go outward. In this process, bank capital merges with industrial capital to form finance capital, and this dominates the economy, forcing export of capital rather than commodity. The world itself has already been entirely split up amongst the imperialist powers by World War I, as this was the primary cause behind it.

The Soviet Union was anti-imperialist and anti-colonial, and the dissolution of socialism in the USSR was devastating for all countries involved. As such, even if we were to assume Russia would be imperialist if it could, it inherited no colonies, only a broken economy, and the west had already split the world amongst themselves.

Russia is closer to something like Brazil than an imperialist country like the US, France, Germany, the UK, etc.

As a “tankie,” I disagree. Those who use the term certainly believe it to be along the lines you describe, I won’t contest that, but in actual use it’s a naked pejorative for all supporters of existing socialism. That support for existing socialism is the key part, not whether or not someone thinks the ideas sound cool, but instead what historical and contemporary movements we support. It isn’t even that those claiming to be socialists but oppose it in practice are more “idealistic,” the key question is on whether or not they support existing socialism.

Yes, it’s 100% true.